Question about Song Keys

[fatjack]

wait...fatjack, wouldn't it be an F#m? not just the notes, the harmonies

diminished

and i just realized that i said a B chord is B D# F, its actually an F#... whoopsies

yeah, i just started diminished and augmented stuff yesterday. i did all the harmonies for the keys, but just major and minor. we're doing diminished and augmented next.

technically, there aren't any augmented triads in the major scale

[dmbguitar718]

wait...fatjack, wouldn't it be an F#m? not just the notes, the harmonies

diminished

and i just realized that i said a B chord is B D# F, its actually an F#... whoopsies

yeah, i just started diminished and augmented stuff yesterday. i did all the harmonies for the keys, but just major and minor. we're doing diminished and augmented next.

technically, there aren't any augmented triads in the major scale

yeah, i actually just saw that. so then augmented can only be minor?

[i am sam2]

ok let me ask this question...on that site that appfro put up, the one with the list on the bottom in yellow...whats the difference between 1 sharp and 1 flat? why do they write G as being with 1 sharp; couldnt it just be with Gb instead of F#? i mean, every sharp can be written as a flat...right?

is an F# chord is different from a Gb chord? if so, how?

[fatjack]

wait...fatjack, wouldn't it be an F#m? not just the notes, the harmonies

diminished

and i just realized that i said a B chord is B D# F, its actually an F#... whoopsies

yeah, i just started diminished and augmented stuff yesterday. i did all the harmonies for the keys, but just major and minor. we're doing diminished and augmented next.

technically, there aren't any augmented triads in the major scale

yeah, i actually just saw that. so then augmented can only be minor?

yes, because the minor contains the two 6ths and two 7ths. so the two chord that have scale degree 6 or 7 can be augmented (II and III, respectively)

[Appfro]

ok let me ask this question...on that site that appfro put up, the one with the list on the bottom in yellow...whats the difference between 1 sharp and 1 flat? why do they write G as being with 1 sharp; couldnt it just be with Gb instead of F#? i mean, every sharp can be written as a flat...right?

is an F# chord is different from a Gb chord? if so, how?

shoot me if i'm wrong, but not a difference. more just like a standard way of writing it. i think generally they do it so that there will only be sharps or flats listed in the key.

[i am sam2]

ok let me ask this question...on that site that appfro put up, the one with the list on the bottom in yellow...whats the difference between 1 sharp and 1 flat? why do they write G as being with 1 sharp; couldnt it just be with Gb instead of F#? i mean, every sharp can be written as a flat...right?

is an F# chord is different from a Gb chord? if so, how?

shoot me if i'm wrong, but not a difference. more just like a standard way of writing it. i think generally they do it so that there will only be sharps or flats listed in the key.

yeah it says right about that with an example with A...but it just says "since the key of A calls for sharps(no flats)" ...how does it "call for" sharps as opposed to flats? whats goin on...and i understand the circle of fifths, just not WHY its that way...

[Appfro]

ok let me ask this question...on that site that appfro put up, the one with the list on the bottom in yellow...whats the difference between 1 sharp and 1 flat? why do they write G as being with 1 sharp; couldnt it just be with Gb instead of F#? i mean, every sharp can be written as a flat...right?

is an F# chord is different from a Gb chord? if so, how?

shoot me if i'm wrong, but not a difference. more just like a standard way of writing it. i think generally they do it so that there will only be sharps or flats listed in the key.

yeah it says right about that with an example with A...but it just says "since the key of A calls for sharps(no flats)" ...how does it "call for" sharps as opposed to flats? whats goin on

couldn't tell you

[fatjack]

ok let me ask this question...on that site that appfro put up, the one with the list on the bottom in yellow...whats the difference between 1 sharp and 1 flat? why do they write G as being with 1 sharp; couldnt it just be with Gb instead of F#? i mean, every sharp can be written as a flat...right?

is an F# chord is different from a Gb chord? if so, how?

shoot me if i'm wrong, but not a difference. more just like a standard way of writing it. i think generally they do it so that there will only be sharps or flats listed in the key.

yeah it says right about that with an example with A...but it just says "since the key of A calls for sharps(no flats)" ...how does it "call for" sharps as opposed to flats? whats goin on...and i understand the circle of fifths, just not WHY its that way...

because you can't have two notes with the same letter. since each line and space of the musical staff represents one note, there can only be one note per letter.

every key has to have the letters A B C D E F and G (with different configurations of sharps and flats) once and only once

lets take A for example. why does it have sharps instead of flats? here is A with sharps:

A B C# D E F# G#

all the letters once right? well lets look at it with flats;

A B Db D E Gb Ab

uh oh, you have two A's and two D's... that's not gonna work.

[fatjack]

ok let me ask this question...on that site that appfro put up, the one with the list on the bottom in yellow...whats the difference between 1 sharp and 1 flat? why do they write G as being with 1 sharp; couldnt it just be with Gb instead of F#? i mean, every sharp can be written as a flat...right?

is an F# chord is different from a Gb chord? if so, how?

out of context, there is no difference. but since chords are placed within the context of a song, there is a difference

for instance, the key of C#: F# is the IV chord. there is no Gb in the key of C#.

basically they are the same in the way they sound, but in order to avoid confusion when notating music, there considered to be two different things

[i am sam2]

ok let me ask this question...on that site that appfro put up, the one with the list on the bottom in yellow...whats the difference between 1 sharp and 1 flat? why do they write G as being with 1 sharp; couldnt it just be with Gb instead of F#? i mean, every sharp can be written as a flat...right?

is an F# chord is different from a Gb chord? if so, how?

shoot me if i'm wrong, but not a difference. more just like a standard way of writing it. i think generally they do it so that there will only be sharps or flats listed in the key.

yeah it says right about that with an example with A...but it just says "since the key of A calls for sharps(no flats)" ...how does it "call for" sharps as opposed to flats? whats goin on...and i understand the circle of fifths, just not WHY its that way...

because you can't have two notes with the same letter. since each line and space of the musical staff represents one note, there can only be one note per letter.

every key has to have the letters A B C D E F and G (with different configurations of sharps and flats) once and only once

lets take A for example. why does it have sharps instead of flats? here is A with sharps:

A B C# D E F# G#

all the letters once right? well lets look at it with flats;

A B Db D E Gb Ab

uh oh, you have two A's and two D's... that's not gonna work.

thanks, i actually understand now

[MWR]

if its a basic chording song then you can just see what chords coorespond to the notes in a chord... like if the chord progression in the song is B, D, then G than the key is G because those are the notes in a G chord.

If there's nothing challenging you technique-wise perhaps you should start learning some theory.


To answer the question there's no clear cut way to define the key. Of course a vast majority of songs will fit nicely into major or minor so you should start learning how many sharps/flats are in your guitar friendly keys. It's not really something that can be explained on a message board cause you'll undoubtedly get lots of misinformation a la Praisedave. Just start reading whatever you can.

i gave no mis-information you self-riteous douche.
and look, you gave no information. are you so above him that he doesnt deserve your knowledge? post a link or explain it. and dont give me some bullshit about you not being able to explain it because all hes gonna get in a book is text and you can type just fine right there.

edit: and oh yeah the cheap shot about my knowledge of theory is unnecessary, i dont claim to have any knowledge of theory,

First off, you did give mis-insformation, plain and simple. Second, I've explained this stuff many, many times so don't even go there. Third, that in no way was intended to be a cheap shot.
I hope you know that you getting way too defensive and throwing around insults only reflects badly upon you. As much as you try to turn it around on everyone else, it's you that's coming off as the asshole. And don't give me this "dmbtabs is going in the shitter" mumbo jumbo. We've been having these issues since the day you showed up. I'm not gonna stop giving you shit as long as you give me reasons to, and we know FJ isn't, so just deal with it.

[gumbomadness]

if its a basic chording song then you can just see what chords coorespond to the notes in a chord... like if the chord progression in the song is B, D, then G than the key is G because those are the notes in a G chord.

hmmm... this harkens back to the harmonica thread when you thought you knew what you were talking about

JESUS FUCKIN CHRIST! these boards are goin to goddamn hell! how many god damn fuckin times do i have to tell you that I DID NOT MAKE THAT LIST YOU ASSWIPE. everyone accuses me of being some cocky know it all bastard, i dont claim to know much of anything outside of the fuckin instruments forum and im really fuckin tired of it. i remember when this site used to be fun. now i doublecheck everyfuckin thing i post to make sure theres not some way somebody else can take it that will offend them or give them the wrong idea of me. dont you assholes have anything better to do with your fuckin lives than come to this board and act like A GODDAMN FUCKING DOUCHEBAG to everyone you encounter to vent what i assume must be your sucky life? WHAT THE FUCK! It wouldnt fuckin kill you to have some goddamn common courtesy.

now for a moment lets ignore the rudeness and assholism that so abounds in your post and look at its content... because surely if you are gonna be that big of an asshole there must be some golden knowledge hidden in there. hmmmmm... o wait, there was nothing wrong with what i said... it appears you just wanted to bring up another thread in which i said nothing wrong in order to try and make me look like an idiot. FUCK OFF YOU GODDAMN MOTHER FUCKER. im tryin to help people, as was the goal of the harmonica thread and my post in this thread. in fact, thats the case with most of my posts, whereas with your posts the goal always seems to mock people and allude to this incredible knowledge you possess, and yet you NEVER use it to help anyone ever. either you are a seriously fucked up human being or you just act like an asshole online for no reason.

now back to the thread topic: its also a fairly good chance that whatever chord a basic song starts and ends on is the key.

no praisedave.
your information you gave was wrong. and that beginning chord is the key shit is totally useless.. that only works in folk/rock music most of the time.

your way of describing how to know the key was pretty flawed.. and they said so. get over it.

[Appfro]

if its a basic chording song then you can just see what chords coorespond to the notes in a chord... like if the chord progression in the song is B, D, then G than the key is G because those are the notes in a G chord.

hmmm... this harkens back to the harmonica thread when you thought you knew what you were talking about

JESUS FUCKIN CHRIST! these boards are goin to goddamn hell! how many god damn fuckin times do i have to tell you that I DID NOT MAKE THAT LIST YOU ASSWIPE. everyone accuses me of being some cocky know it all bastard, i dont claim to know much of anything outside of the fuckin instruments forum and im really fuckin tired of it. i remember when this site used to be fun. now i doublecheck everyfuckin thing i post to make sure theres not some way somebody else can take it that will offend them or give them the wrong idea of me. dont you assholes have anything better to do with your fuckin lives than come to this board and act like A GODDAMN FUCKING DOUCHEBAG to everyone you encounter to vent what i assume must be your sucky life? WHAT THE FUCK! It wouldnt fuckin kill you to have some goddamn common courtesy.

now for a moment lets ignore the rudeness and assholism that so abounds in your post and look at its content... because surely if you are gonna be that big of an asshole there must be some golden knowledge hidden in there. hmmmmm... o wait, there was nothing wrong with what i said... it appears you just wanted to bring up another thread in which i said nothing wrong in order to try and make me look like an idiot. FUCK OFF YOU GODDAMN MOTHER FUCKER. im tryin to help people, as was the goal of the harmonica thread and my post in this thread. in fact, thats the case with most of my posts, whereas with your posts the goal always seems to mock people and allude to this incredible knowledge you possess, and yet you NEVER use it to help anyone ever. either you are a seriously fucked up human being or you just act like an asshole online for no reason.

now back to the thread topic: its also a fairly good chance that whatever chord a basic song starts and ends on is the key.

no praisedave.
your information you gave was wrong. and that beginning chord is the key shit is totally useless.. that only works in folk/rock music most of the time.

your way of describing how to know the key was pretty flawed.. and they said so. get over it.

i think the situation was pretty much resolved. but here you come w/ your gasoline as always.

[mrjones]

Well, there's a bit more to it than that. The G chord appears in more than just the key of G. A G chord appears in the keys of C, D, and G. In fact, if the chords are B, D & G the song is definitely NOT in G. You can't define the key of a song based on one chord, or sometimes even two chords.

For major keys there is a pattern of Maj, min, min, Maj, Maj, min, dim.
So, the key of G is comprised of G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, and Fdim. No B.
That's the gist.

There's a site that gives a pretty good over-view of theory here.

this isnt true all the time is it? (i know very little about theory so i might be wrong here but...)
in the song Flake by Jack Johnson, the chorus is in the key of F. the chords of the chorus are F C Dm A Bb C F C.
I have a question about the A chord. the A chord is the 3rd of the F scale, which according to what you said in bold, should be an Am.
I see that an A chord has a A C# E in it, and a C# isnt in a F scale.

My question is, since A has a C# which is not in a F scale, does that mean the chorus isnt in the key of F? or can some chords out of the scale be played and remain in the same key?

[fatjack]

Well, there's a bit more to it than that. The G chord appears in more than just the key of G. A G chord appears in the keys of C, D, and G. In fact, if the chords are B, D & G the song is definitely NOT in G. You can't define the key of a song based on one chord, or sometimes even two chords.

For major keys there is a pattern of Maj, min, min, Maj, Maj, min, dim.
So, the key of G is comprised of G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, and Fdim. No B.
That's the gist.

There's a site that gives a pretty good over-view of theory here.

this isnt true all the time is it? (i know very little about theory so i might be wrong here but...)
in the song Flake by Jack Johnson, the chorus is in the key of F. the chords of the chorus are F C Dm A Bb C F C.
I have a question about the A chord. the A chord is the 3rd of the F scale, which according to what you said in bold, should be an Am.
I see that an A chord has a A C# E in it, and a C# isnt in a F scale.

My question is, since A has a C# which is not in a F scale, does that mean the chorus isnt in the key of F? or can some chords out of the scale be played and remain in the same key?

this progression does what is called tonicization. this is when a second key area is briefly outlined by a chord progression. in this case, the key of D minor is tonicized. the Dm serves as VI in the key of F major, but it also serves as the I of D minor. when a chord is used in both key areas as a bridge between the two, it is called a pivot chord.

so here's how the progression works:

I V VI in F major

I V VI in D minor (the D minor serves as the I in this progression and the VI in the previous progression)

IV V I V in F major (the Bb chord serves as the IV in this progression and as the VI in the previous progression; so it is a pivot chord back to the original key of F major)

do you see how Dm is only briefly outlined? thats what makes it a tonicization.