DEGENERATION

[gcom007]

waffle_house_jam wrote:
*sigh...
i admit that i am quite disappointed with dmb nowadays. however, i think you should have some respect for dave simply because he has created a great deal of in my opinion, excellent music. as for being unprofessional on tour, who cares? if i want to hear the goddamn album, i'll listen to it. if i want to go see one of my favorite bands in person, i'll go see a concert, and in my experience, dave is a great performer. he has a definite presence onstage and i think his concerts were fun. as for the guitar playing thing, i've said it a million times, it's not what you play, it's how you play it, and i think dave's style is excellent.


I hear ya to a degree, but I'm not saying I want to hear album perfection, but the amount of mistakes I've seen in the last few shows is just mindblowing...they perform well from an entertainment standpoint in my opinion. 12/13/02 and 7/2/03 I'd have to say were pretty lacking in real energy, but every other show felt a little more energetic. DDTW opener a couple weeks ago was just mindblowing. I always dogged that song as an opener but experiencing it...man, it was incredible. then the songs went on...boyd hacked his way through wtwe and satellite...those two songs don't have a lot of grand power and his mistakes just stick out like a sore thumb. then they played warehouse and leroi just didn't seem to have it...was missing parts. 12/13/02 was by far one of the worst concerts I've seen in general. I posted about that way back in the day too right on this board. Dave and Tim rejuvenated my interest as they just put on good, solid, fun shows, but going to see the whole band proved once again that they're just really losing a step. It's like they're just doing it for the sake of doing it and not really caring how well it actually comes off. it makes me think a lot about dave's solo album...if a lot of these new songs aren't working with the band and he's having to do them solo, maybe it's another sign that the band is just dwindling away or atleast in need of a Phish-esque hiatis. I really wouldn't mind that, because I think something's really gotta give. I've got a feeling Dave's going to have more than his fair of fun going solo and I wouldn't be shocked or disappointed to see Dave ditch the band permanently or atleast for a year or two. dave's style is changing to more of an independent style, as in the songs are beginning to support themselves more on their own. he just needs a bass and a less intense drummer. I don't say that to down carter. Carter is and always will be the one thing that really takes DMB where they are, but he's bigtime, heavy, or jazzy, and I think dave just needs a little rhythm. I've speculated about this for awhile now. I got blasted on bridge two or three years ago saying dave would start to get a little folkier and I woudln't be shocked to see him do a solo album. it'd be cool if he went kinda inbetween sting and james taylor as far as style. but in any event, the band needs a break. nothing is coming...from a band standpoint, they really haven't done much new in the last few years. everyday was dave, busted stuff is old and boyd's role is minimizing by the day as he just can't stay in tune. more than anything though, they're just not together. it doesn't feel like they work together anymore. maybe it is just me, maybe, I won't say I'm 100% right, but I don't think I'm totally out of it either and I know the band I've seen 8 times in the last year is not the same band I saw even just a few years back...not by a longshot...
_________________
-Elliot



Appsoldier wrote:
gcom007 wrote:
12/13/02 and 7/2/03 I'd have to say were pretty lacking in real energy, but every other show felt a little more energetic. DDTW opener a couple weeks ago was just mindblowing. I always dogged that song as an opener but experiencing it...man, it was incredible. then the songs went on...boyd hacked his way through wtwe and satellite...those two songs don't have a lot of grand power and his mistakes just stick out like a sore thumb. then they played warehouse and leroi just didn't seem to have it...was missing parts. 12/13/02 was by far one of the worst concerts I've seen in general.


Let me just say first that in my opinion Dave live is 10 times better than Dave on cd. That's why i love Busted Stuff 10 times more than Everyday...Everyday had real sheet music and no jaming, and if you're listening or goign to a Dave concert it's to hear the jamming. cause let's face it, there isn't another band that can just jam like Dmb can.
With that said, i have noticed lately that some of their concerts have been kinda half assed. you don't hear concerts like red rocks anymore unless you do go to a D&T concert and perhaps those are only good becasue Tim does things w/ an acoustic guitar that you are supposed to be able to do.
My question is...are these concerts going downhill perhaps because DMB is just getting tired of each other. I mean, it hasn't been DMB in a while, Tim's always playing w/ them or Butch is always screwing up another song. Now everyone is doing there own thing, Boyd w/ his own Cd, Dave w/ his, Stefan's been playing for other people. DMB came out w/ everyday and busted stuff pretty much back to back and have been touring everysince. do you think the old dmb would come back if maybe they took a break. not break up but maybe took a year or two to sit down away from each other, stop writing and come back w/ the ole fashion love for music...cause isn't that why we all do it. the love of music. when it becomes more of a business and a job than a love and a hobbie...well then we've lost what we were doing in the beginning and we're no better than baseball players that get paid 15 million dollars a year to throw a ball 60 feet 6 inches.


this is the biggest thing I'm getting at...ever since 12/13/02 and also the marginally better 12/14/02 I've really lost respect for DMB as a band. Those two shows were just terrible...songs like Bartender and Grey Street, which more or less are about as emotional as songs come came off as just routine. I can only liken it to an actor acting but not really trying real hard to fake it either and ultimately looking just kinda lost. That's what it felt like. Let me tell you...Deer Creek...8/10 and 11 of the year 2002...those shows were pretty much off the hook as far as real energy and earnestness. Mistakes were there in abundance, but you could tell they were still really going all out. The show I saw before I thought was incredibly weak and the shows I've seen since have been incredibly weak. Not only do you have the mistakes, but you also have the whole "I don't really care" attitude. This year just made me want to leave as Dave just walked around the stage for an exhorbitent amount of time inbetween songs doing nothing but laughing at himself. It was pathetic...he didn't seem to really want to try to go all out...you don't throw yourself into a song and then walk around like a piece of meat for five minutes...you just keep going...not to say they can't take a break inbetween songs or whatnot, but the energy that was generated dropped as soon as the final note was played in every case. It was just stop, ahhh, let's look around...Boyd, now might be a good time to tune, oh, you don't feel like it? well let's just laugh and talk through our IEM's about girls in the front row...that's what it feels like! It's as if they just don't care anymore. They just do it...they're like the ice cream man...they come back every summer dishing the same flavors basically. Yeah, it's kinda good for a bit, but ultimately, who gives a crap about the ice cream man when it all shakes down. It's just a nice little aside to everyday life once in awhile. Except Dave's ice cream is half-melted so you're not really getting what you pay for...$60 a ticket and $30 per year if you got them through Warehouse (which I'm not renewing...). 2000 was the last year they seemed to really be playing for something. 2001 was just strange, 2002 was pretty good but a lot more routine than many seem to think. 2003 is just feeling the same if not worse. You all are ticked at me because I'm making a big deal out of this...well fine! Why shouldn't I?!?! I'm ticked off! I know what they're capable of. Granted I don't hold them in the reverence of the greatest band on earth by any stretch of the imagination, but I know they could be a whole heck of a lot better than they are now, and I'm sure they know it too, but they really just don't seem to care, and that ticks me off. I don't know if it was the whole LWS/Everyday thing or if it was just the standard path that people take in this industry, but something happened. Something went wrong. Whether some of you see it or not, it's simply the truth. In the last three years, more hardcore DMB fans dropped off the face of the map than I would've ever imagined. On the boards these days it seems hard to find someone who's been listening for even three-four years. I've been posting on stinking message boards about them a lot longer than that! Trust me! It's changed!!! The band, the people, everything, it's changed and it's not for the better. You can write me off right now and say I'm just trying to be elitist. Fine, go ahead, it's not like I give a crap anyways, but in any event, I've been around the block more than a few times and never, ever, ever could I or any of the real old-timers imagined where this has gone. It's quite frankly pathetic. Why I'm still around now, I don't know. You ask why I'm the only one spouting this stuff...everyone else disappeared. they just dropped the band completely. I more or less did too. Before this place came up, I wasn't posting really at Bridge anymore, and before a few days ago I hadn't posted here in ages. The only real reason I'm back is just because my frustration had really been pushed by the july 2 show. for some reason I'm a schmuck and don't feel like just letting it go. why? I don't know. It is stupid to try and convince people on a stupid message board about stuff like this, but for some reason I still do it. I love music with all that is within me. It really is the driving force behind my life and DMB really shaped me musically from the beginning. They were my favorite band from 1994-2002. 8 years of my life I spent listening and loving DMB, and the last few years, well, they just sucked. plain and simple. The fire is just gone. It's not me...I tried to embrace the new DMB, I even like Everyday! But the band...they're just gone. They don't give a rip anymore for who knows what reasons and that just ticks me off. And I'm the dumb sucker who still somehow has an ounce or two of faith left which is why I'm writing this ridiculous essay on DMB at 4 am. after 8 years, I'm just not willing to go out without a fight or without my say in things. Sorry.
_________________
-Elliot

[gcom007]

are you a fan of DMB, just dave, or not that big of a fan and just interested in the guitar info found on the site?

I'm not trying to be a persistent a-hole but i'm just confused how you think so little of the band, and yet it says you're an authority of DMBtabs.com. To any normal outsider, i believe it would seem strange...agree?

right now, I'm a fan of Carter Beauford, a mildy interested follower of Dave, a proponent of the Dave Matthews solo career and a hater of the concept of Dave Matthews Band, and read my previous post.

[tjmac66pc]

whoa dude, little overkill with the analysis there...you should submit your resume to rolling stone magazine and be a writer for them...sorry but i don't get that bent outta shape over a band after one or two bad shows i've attended, whether it be DMB, Metallica, or whoever.. the 'concept' of dmb? what don't you agree with? these are message boards...not novel boards...i'm surprised you don't have chapters in those posts...i get the feeling you were stiffed by the WH or something or had beer thrown on you at dmb concert and are just little disgruntled...lighten up guy!

[MattyTrane]

Favorite part of the above post....Chapters in posts....love it

[gcom007]

Favorite part of the above post....Chapters in posts....love it

aren't you cute?

[MattyTrane]

8) <---these specs are.

[mattahews]

This place can't get as bad as the other boards. Thats impossible.

[Roastbeef]

waffle_house_jam wrote:
*sigh...
i admit that i am quite disappointed with dmb nowadays. however, i think you should have some respect for dave simply because he has created a great deal of in my opinion, excellent music. as for being unprofessional on tour, who cares? if i want to hear the goddamn album, i'll listen to it. if i want to go see one of my favorite bands in person, i'll go see a concert, and in my experience, dave is a great performer. he has a definite presence onstage and i think his concerts were fun. as for the guitar playing thing, i've said it a million times, it's not what you play, it's how you play it, and i think dave's style is excellent.


I hear ya to a degree, but I'm not saying I want to hear album perfection, but the amount of mistakes I've seen in the last few shows is just mindblowing...they perform well from an entertainment standpoint in my opinion. 12/13/02 and 7/2/03 I'd have to say were pretty lacking in real energy, but every other show felt a little more energetic. DDTW opener a couple weeks ago was just mindblowing. I always dogged that song as an opener but experiencing it...man, it was incredible. then the songs went on...boyd hacked his way through wtwe and satellite...those two songs don't have a lot of grand power and his mistakes just stick out like a sore thumb. then they played warehouse and leroi just didn't seem to have it...was missing parts. 12/13/02 was by far one of the worst concerts I've seen in general. I posted about that way back in the day too right on this board. Dave and Tim rejuvenated my interest as they just put on good, solid, fun shows, but going to see the whole band proved once again that they're just really losing a step. It's like they're just doing it for the sake of doing it and not really caring how well it actually comes off. it makes me think a lot about dave's solo album...if a lot of these new songs aren't working with the band and he's having to do them solo, maybe it's another sign that the band is just dwindling away or atleast in need of a Phish-esque hiatis. I really wouldn't mind that, because I think something's really gotta give. I've got a feeling Dave's going to have more than his fair of fun going solo and I wouldn't be shocked or disappointed to see Dave ditch the band permanently or atleast for a year or two. dave's style is changing to more of an independent style, as in the songs are beginning to support themselves more on their own. he just needs a bass and a less intense drummer. I don't say that to down carter. Carter is and always will be the one thing that really takes DMB where they are, but he's bigtime, heavy, or jazzy, and I think dave just needs a little rhythm. I've speculated about this for awhile now. I got blasted on bridge two or three years ago saying dave would start to get a little folkier and I woudln't be shocked to see him do a solo album. it'd be cool if he went kinda inbetween sting and james taylor as far as style. but in any event, the band needs a break. nothing is coming...from a band standpoint, they really haven't done much new in the last few years. everyday was dave, busted stuff is old and boyd's role is minimizing by the day as he just can't stay in tune. more than anything though, they're just not together. it doesn't feel like they work together anymore. maybe it is just me, maybe, I won't say I'm 100% right, but I don't think I'm totally out of it either and I know the band I've seen 8 times in the last year is not the same band I saw even just a few years back...not by a longshot...
_________________
-Elliot



Appsoldier wrote:
gcom007 wrote:
12/13/02 and 7/2/03 I'd have to say were pretty lacking in real energy, but every other show felt a little more energetic. DDTW opener a couple weeks ago was just mindblowing. I always dogged that song as an opener but experiencing it...man, it was incredible. then the songs went on...boyd hacked his way through wtwe and satellite...those two songs don't have a lot of grand power and his mistakes just stick out like a sore thumb. then they played warehouse and leroi just didn't seem to have it...was missing parts. 12/13/02 was by far one of the worst concerts I've seen in general.


Let me just say first that in my opinion Dave live is 10 times better than Dave on cd. That's why i love Busted Stuff 10 times more than Everyday...Everyday had real sheet music and no jaming, and if you're listening or goign to a Dave concert it's to hear the jamming. cause let's face it, there isn't another band that can just jam like Dmb can.
With that said, i have noticed lately that some of their concerts have been kinda half assed. you don't hear concerts like red rocks anymore unless you do go to a D&T concert and perhaps those are only good becasue Tim does things w/ an acoustic guitar that you are supposed to be able to do.
My question is...are these concerts going downhill perhaps because DMB is just getting tired of each other. I mean, it hasn't been DMB in a while, Tim's always playing w/ them or Butch is always screwing up another song. Now everyone is doing there own thing, Boyd w/ his own Cd, Dave w/ his, Stefan's been playing for other people. DMB came out w/ everyday and busted stuff pretty much back to back and have been touring everysince. do you think the old dmb would come back if maybe they took a break. not break up but maybe took a year or two to sit down away from each other, stop writing and come back w/ the ole fashion love for music...cause isn't that why we all do it. the love of music. when it becomes more of a business and a job than a love and a hobbie...well then we've lost what we were doing in the beginning and we're no better than baseball players that get paid 15 million dollars a year to throw a ball 60 feet 6 inches.


this is the biggest thing I'm getting at...ever since 12/13/02 and also the marginally better 12/14/02 I've really lost respect for DMB as a band. Those two shows were just terrible...songs like Bartender and Grey Street, which more or less are about as emotional as songs come came off as just routine. I can only liken it to an actor acting but not really trying real hard to fake it either and ultimately looking just kinda lost. That's what it felt like. Let me tell you...Deer Creek...8/10 and 11 of the year 2002...those shows were pretty much off the hook as far as real energy and earnestness. Mistakes were there in abundance, but you could tell they were still really going all out. The show I saw before I thought was incredibly weak and the shows I've seen since have been incredibly weak. Not only do you have the mistakes, but you also have the whole "I don't really care" attitude. This year just made me want to leave as Dave just walked around the stage for an exhorbitent amount of time inbetween songs doing nothing but laughing at himself. It was pathetic...he didn't seem to really want to try to go all out...you don't throw yourself into a song and then walk around like a piece of meat for five minutes...you just keep going...not to say they can't take a break inbetween songs or whatnot, but the energy that was generated dropped as soon as the final note was played in every case. It was just stop, ahhh, let's look around...Boyd, now might be a good time to tune, oh, you don't feel like it? well let's just laugh and talk through our IEM's about girls in the front row...that's what it feels like! It's as if they just don't care anymore. They just do it...they're like the ice cream man...they come back every summer dishing the same flavors basically. Yeah, it's kinda good for a bit, but ultimately, who gives a crap about the ice cream man when it all shakes down. It's just a nice little aside to everyday life once in awhile. Except Dave's ice cream is half-melted so you're not really getting what you pay for...$60 a ticket and $30 per year if you got them through Warehouse (which I'm not renewing...). 2000 was the last year they seemed to really be playing for something. 2001 was just strange, 2002 was pretty good but a lot more routine than many seem to think. 2003 is just feeling the same if not worse. You all are ticked at me because I'm making a big deal out of this...well fine! Why shouldn't I?!?! I'm ticked off! I know what they're capable of. Granted I don't hold them in the reverence of the greatest band on earth by any stretch of the imagination, but I know they could be a whole heck of a lot better than they are now, and I'm sure they know it too, but they really just don't seem to care, and that ticks me off. I don't know if it was the whole LWS/Everyday thing or if it was just the standard path that people take in this industry, but something happened. Something went wrong. Whether some of you see it or not, it's simply the truth. In the last three years, more hardcore DMB fans dropped off the face of the map than I would've ever imagined. On the boards these days it seems hard to find someone who's been listening for even three-four years. I've been posting on stinking message boards about them a lot longer than that! Trust me! It's changed!!! The band, the people, everything, it's changed and it's not for the better. You can write me off right now and say I'm just trying to be elitist. Fine, go ahead, it's not like I give a crap anyways, but in any event, I've been around the block more than a few times and never, ever, ever could I or any of the real old-timers imagined where this has gone. It's quite frankly pathetic. Why I'm still around now, I don't know. You ask why I'm the only one spouting this stuff...everyone else disappeared. they just dropped the band completely. I more or less did too. Before this place came up, I wasn't posting really at Bridge anymore, and before a few days ago I hadn't posted here in ages. The only real reason I'm back is just because my frustration had really been pushed by the july 2 show. for some reason I'm a schmuck and don't feel like just letting it go. why? I don't know. It is stupid to try and convince people on a stupid message board about stuff like this, but for some reason I still do it. I love music with all that is within me. It really is the driving force behind my life and DMB really shaped me musically from the beginning. They were my favorite band from 1994-2002. 8 years of my life I spent listening and loving DMB, and the last few years, well, they just sucked. plain and simple. The fire is just gone. It's not me...I tried to embrace the new DMB, I even like Everyday! But the band...they're just gone. They don't give a rip anymore for who knows what reasons and that just ticks me off. And I'm the dumb sucker who still somehow has an ounce or two of faith left which is why I'm writing this ridiculous essay on DMB at 4 am. after 8 years, I'm just not willing to go out without a fight or without my say in things. Sorry.
_________________
-Elliot

Dude, you have too much free time on your hands. Go get a job.

[fatjack]

why don't you just lay off of gcom, ok everyone... he's just giving his opinion, and if you read his long post carefully, you'd realize he's not simply "bashing" the band. he has a very good point and everyone getting on his case isn't going to make his opinion change... why not give him some reassuring comments, rather than just immediately respond with "you suck". instead of saying,"shut up man, dmb rocks for life!" why not say, "i can see what your saying, things will get better. just keep your hopes up."

responding negatively to him will probably be the last thing that will get him to like dmb as he once did...

[mattahews]

Nice, fatjack. I have noticed that when gcom states a negative opinion towards the band, he usually gets jumped on. We need to accept his opinions as valid.

[Davy28]

Basically, there's a difference between saying that a particular facet of the band sucks, or that the band sucks in general. It is right to jump on a person who says that the band sucks with out any backing evidence (or just to piss people off). But it is totally acceptable to respect the opinion of one who describes a facet of the band that they don't like (ie. Boyd's recent lack of musicianship), and then say they don't like the band because of that.
I think its good that gcom did that because it reminds us that dave, leroi, carter, stefan, boyd, timmy, butch, and even the lovely ladies are all human and screw up from time to time. We seem to revere them as if they were gods, that they will woo anyone who listens to them. gcom may dislike the band, but he must care enough about the band and its fans on this site to write a thread to make them aware of facets of the band that need improvement. With that in mind, we can appreciate the music all the more.

[firedancer86]

I try to remove myself from these threads when they get like this, but I just had to say...

EVEN THE POST ABOUT DEGENERATION IS DEGENERATING...

and fatjack...yeesh!

I could care less about his opinions...I have yet to bach Gcom...it is just the general discussion around here is getting awefully "bridgey" round here...

[Jay]

since the title of the thread is so large, it reminds me of then the guy that says "regeneration" in Quake III Arena. and now everytime i see the thread, i head his deep obnoxious voice saying DEGENERATION

thanks for that Jay

oh i aim to please. see, if everyone was as dumb as me we could all just laugh and sit around.

DEGENERATION.

i seriously can't get it out of my head...

[gcom007]

I try to remove myself from these threads when they get like this, but I just had to say...

EVEN THE POST ABOUT DEGENERATION IS DEGENERATING...

howso? we're civally discussing our differences, is there a problem with that or should we run around like incessantly happy teletubbies? I'm confused...

[isaac]

I try to remove myself from these threads when they get like this, but I just had to say...

EVEN THE POST ABOUT DEGENERATION IS DEGENERATING...

howso? we're civally discussing our differences, is there a problem with that or should we run around like incessantly happy teletubbies? I'm confused...

do their faces ever move? how can we tell they're really happy? hmm...

and i'm likin' your longer posts gcom. well thought out and poignant...just very daunting to look at.