You Never Know timing

[BrOpus]

This has been screwing with me for a while... At the end of the 0:14 mark on the album, Carter hits the cymbals (and this is why it's throwing me off - it's on an upstroke). I can't figure out wether or not to start the first chord formation over again at that mark or finish the rythm regardless of the cymbal crash. If I ignore it, it falls into place nicely, but it's not in sync for that one momont where you hear the crash. I know I must sound like an idiot, but does anyone know what I'm talking about?

-Mike

[PilotC150]

Yea, it's really tough to get the timing, but if you sit and concentrate listening to the guitar over and over on that part you'll see the riff does start over with the cymbal crash.

[BrOpus]

Okey... I'm no music major, but listening to the song over and over again mad me think that the odd meter is 5/8'ths time... Gotta hand it to the boys so make such an intricate and complicated song.

|Mike|

[KevinGTArch]

Is it 5/8 or 3/8? I've never been able to count it myself but for some reason I can just "feel" it and get the timing right when I play. I also think the song changes times at different sections. I'll have to check this out...

Kev

[BrOpus]

I'm pretty sure it's 5/8 'cause in some of the live shows you can hear Carter counting off on the drums beforehand... as for the meter change, I thought the same thing for a while but now I think you get that effect because the crash sounds off on an upbeat.

| Mike |

[sjakubek]

don't let that cymbal crash throw you off. the song is in 3/8, and if you really try, you can constantly count off 1-2-3 throughout the whole thing. the cymbal crash happens to come on beat 3 which is why it sound odd. but the actually guitar riff starts the beat AFTER the cymbal, beat 1. you can hear it better starting at 0:29, carter hits the snare after the cymbal crash, that's beat 1 and where the riff starts. hope this helps!

[jpittman]

The cymbal crash is actually on the & of 2.

[sjakubek]

my bad you're right

[jpittman]

No worries.

[KevinGTArch]

I did some digging and found this quote from an old article (5-18-2002) by Brian Pace at nancies.org.

"'You Never Know' plays in a variant of 3/8 time with the emphasis on the 8th note. On the verses, Carter plays in duplets instead of triplets against the 3/8. In the meantime, he puts in a fake downbeat that is a backbeat of a duplet, making dancing to it a real adventure. The bridge has alternating 5/8 and 3/8 bars, with the 3/8 bars having a feel of 3/4 with the accent falling on every two eighth notes instead of on every three eighth notes. This time signature treatment is common in classical (see: Schubert and Brahms), but I've never heard it outside of classical and jazz."

http://www.nancies.org/articles/020518.php

No way can I match this guy's music theory but I can hear a bit of what he's talking about. It may clear up why we can't decide on 3/8 and 5/8.

Peace,

Kev

[gravedigger]

on paper it looks a lot more complex than it sounds.

[jpittman]

Hmm. I've always felt the bridge as being 3 bars of 5/8 with one bar of 6/8 at the end (5-5-5-6). It all works out to 21 beats in the end, so it doesn't really matter, I suppose.

.....

Actually, I just listened to it (many times, actually). I think the guy that Pace quoted above is right. It does feel a bit more "proper" when feeling it as 5-3-5-3-5.

[sjakubek]

wow, no matter how many times i listen to that part i can't hear it any other way but 3 bars of 5/8 followed by a bar of 3/4. how did you guys get to hear it as 5-3-5-3-5?