Question about Song Keys

[mangold]

if its a basic chording song then you can just see what chords coorespond to the notes in a chord... like if the chord progression in the song is B, D, then G than the key is G because those are the notes in a G chord.

If there's nothing challenging you technique-wise perhaps you should start learning some theory.


To answer the question there's no clear cut way to define the key. Of course a vast majority of songs will fit nicely into major or minor so you should start learning how many sharps/flats are in your guitar friendly keys. It's not really something that can be explained on a message board cause you'll undoubtedly get lots of misinformation a la Praisedave. Just start reading whatever you can.

i gave no mis-information you self-riteous douche.
and look, you gave no information. are you so above him that he doesnt deserve your knowledge? post a link or explain it. and dont give me some bullshit about you not being able to explain it because all hes gonna get in a book is text and you can type just fine right there.

edit: and oh yeah the cheap shot about my knowledge of theory is unnecessary, i dont claim to have any knowledge of theory,

First off, you did give mis-insformation, plain and simple. Second, I've explained this stuff many, many times so don't even go there. Third, that in no way was intended to be a cheap shot.
I hope you know that you getting way too defensive and throwing around insults only reflects badly upon you. As much as you try to turn it around on everyone else, it's you that's coming off as the asshole. And don't give me this "dmbtabs is going in the shitter" mumbo jumbo. We've been having these issues since the day you showed up. I'm not gonna stop giving you shit as long as you give me reasons to, and we know FJ isn't, so just deal with it.

ok. im sorry. you were right and i was wrong. i got that information from my mom who is a music teacher, and apparently a bad one. i apologize for the insults to you and fatjack, i was pissed at outside things as well. however, to me it would have made more sense for you to respond to my first post by saying "No praise, thats wrong. the song is in the key of (key here) because (reason) i dont know who gave you the information but it is incorrect." as opposed to "praisedave is spouting wrong answers again"

i wont comment again on key or anything theory related

[littlefriend]

Well, there's a bit more to it than that. The G chord appears in more than just the key of G. A G chord appears in the keys of C, D, and G. In fact, if the chords are B, D & G the song is definitely NOT in G. You can't define the key of a song based on one chord, or sometimes even two chords.

For major keys there is a pattern of Maj, min, min, Maj, Maj, min, dim.
So, the key of G is comprised of G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, and Fdim. No B.
That's the gist.

There's a site that gives a pretty good over-view of theory here.

this isnt true all the time is it? (i know very little about theory so i might be wrong here but...)
in the song Flake by Jack Johnson, the chorus is in the key of F. the chords of the chorus are F C Dm A Bb C F C.
I have a question about the A chord. the A chord is the 3rd of the F scale, which according to what you said in bold, should be an Am.
I see that an A chord has a A C# E in it, and a C# isnt in a F scale.

My question is, since A has a C# which is not in a F scale, does that mean the chorus isnt in the key of F? or can some chords out of the scale be played and remain in the same key?

this progression does what is called tonicization. this is when a second key area is briefly outlined by a chord progression. in this case, the key of D minor is tonicized. the Dm serves as VI in the key of F major, but it also serves as the I of D minor. when a chord is used in both key areas as a bridge between the two, it is called a pivot chord.

so here's how the progression works:

I V VI in F major

I V VI in D minor (the D minor serves as the I in this progression and the VI in the previous progression)

IV V I V in F major (the Bb chord serves as the IV in this progression and as the VI in the previous progression; so it is a pivot chord back to the original key of F major)

do you see how Dm is only briefly outlined? thats what makes it a tonicization.

So what exactly is the difference between tonicization and modulation? Do tonicizations occur within a given key and modulations occur within a given scale, or is there more to it than that?

And FJ, I must say, as much of an ass as you can be, you really are a wealth of knowledge. I've learned plenty from your posts and I thank you. MWR, you too, man. You guys are assets to the community.

[mrjones]

Well, there's a bit more to it than that. The G chord appears in more than just the key of G. A G chord appears in the keys of C, D, and G. In fact, if the chords are B, D & G the song is definitely NOT in G. You can't define the key of a song based on one chord, or sometimes even two chords.

For major keys there is a pattern of Maj, min, min, Maj, Maj, min, dim.
So, the key of G is comprised of G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, and Fdim. No B.
That's the gist.

There's a site that gives a pretty good over-view of theory here.

this isnt true all the time is it? (i know very little about theory so i might be wrong here but...)
in the song Flake by Jack Johnson, the chorus is in the key of F. the chords of the chorus are F C Dm A Bb C F C.
I have a question about the A chord. the A chord is the 3rd of the F scale, which according to what you said in bold, should be an Am.
I see that an A chord has a A C# E in it, and a C# isnt in a F scale.

My question is, since A has a C# which is not in a F scale, does that mean the chorus isnt in the key of F? or can some chords out of the scale be played and remain in the same key?

this progression does what is called tonicization. this is when a second key area is briefly outlined by a chord progression. in this case, the key of D minor is tonicized. the Dm serves as VI in the key of F major, but it also serves as the I of D minor. when a chord is used in both key areas as a bridge between the two, it is called a pivot chord.

so here's how the progression works:

I V VI in F major

I V VI in D minor (the D minor serves as the I in this progression and the VI in the previous progression)

IV V I V in F major (the Bb chord serves as the IV in this progression and as the VI in the previous progression; so it is a pivot chord back to the original key of F major)

do you see how Dm is only briefly outlined? thats what makes it a tonicization.

thanks, that helps a lot.
another question, how does the minor scale work? whats the pattern for that?

[littlefriend]

Well, we can actually figure this out fairly easily.
We know that C maj is:
C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim.

We also know that Amin is the relative minor (meaning it's the same scale starting on the relative note of the major scale) of Cmaj.
So Amin would be:
Am, Bdim, C, Dm, Em, F, G.

That would make the minor pattern:
min, dim, Maj, min, min, Maj, Maj.

I'm pretty sure, anyway.

[mrjones]

Well, we can actually figure this out fairly easily.
We know that C maj is:
C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim.

We also know that Amin is the relative minor (meaning it's the same scale starting on the relative note of the major scale) of Cmaj.
So Amin would be:
Am, Bdim, C, Dm, Em, F, G.

That would make the minor pattern:
min, dim, Maj, min, min, Maj, Maj.

I'm pretty sure, anyway.

this cant be correct. FJ said that Dm scale would have an A with it but a F scale would not. so that means an Am scale would have an E maj in it.

[MWR]

Well, we can actually figure this out fairly easily.
We know that C maj is:
C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim.

We also know that Amin is the relative minor (meaning it's the same scale starting on the relative note of the major scale) of Cmaj.
So Amin would be:
Am, Bdim, C, Dm, Em, F, G.

That would make the minor pattern:
min, dim, Maj, min, min, Maj, Maj.

I'm pretty sure, anyway.

Exactly right.

For those who don't know, the diminished chord (7th degree in major) is much more effective as either a minor seventh flat five or you can just flatten it and make it major. So in the key of C make up a little progression and use either Bm7b5 or Bb in place of that B diminished chord. For those who are familiar with modes you'll recognize that the flat seven is associated with mixolydian thus giving the progression a a sort of harder edged dominant feel. The Bm7b5 will give a stronger pull back to C but it might sound a little too dissonant depending on what kind of mood you're going for. Of course this also opens up the possiblity for some interesting modulation(key changes). If you play that seventh as a Bb you could transition to F, Dm, or even Bb but that would require a bit more finesse.

[littlefriend]

Okay. But how do those chords (Bb & Bm7b5) work within the key of C? It works for me tonically (or is it tonally?), because I've never cared for the sound of diminished chords in my music, but why is it okay to deviate from the original key for just one chord? It seems that you'd need to tonicize for more than just one chord without throwing the sounding off. Or is it okay just because? I'm okay with that, too, really.

[fatjack]

Well, we can actually figure this out fairly easily.
We know that C maj is:
C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim.

We also know that Amin is the relative minor (meaning it's the same scale starting on the relative note of the major scale) of Cmaj.
So Amin would be:
Am, Bdim, C, Dm, Em, F, G.

That would make the minor pattern:
min, dim, Maj, min, min, Maj, Maj.

I'm pretty sure, anyway.

this cant be correct. FJ said that Dm scale would have an A with it but a F scale would not. so that means an Am scale would have an E maj in it.

this is because the minor scale is not simply a rearrangement of the major scale.

which is why littlefriend's post is not quite correct

the minor scale actually has more than 7 tones in it. this is because it has two scale degree 7s and two scale degree 6's.

this is the minor scale when looked at from a completely modal (Aeolian) context

1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

but there are two other tones: natural 6 and natural 7. the reason there these two tones are included is to make up for the fact that the minor scale does not having a leading tone. the flat degrees are played while descending and the natural degrees when ascending

but these tones apply to harmonization as well. this is most apparent in the V chord. a V chord cannot function as a true V chord unless it is a major triad. if you look at littlefriend's post, he says that the V chord is minor. the reason it must be changed to a major is because scale degree 7 is the third of the V triad. a V chord will not function likes it is supposed to unless it has the leading tone.

look at the D minor scale:

if the V chord was an Am like you are suggesting, then these are the tones: A C E. C is the b7 of the minor scale. since the b7 moves downward, then a V chord will not move to a tonic harmony because there is no pull towards scale degree one.

but if the C# replaces the C, then you have a strong pull towards scale degree 1, and the V chord will function like it is supposed to

[fatjack]

So what exactly is the difference between tonicization and modulation? Do tonicizations occur within a given key and modulations occur within a given scale, or is there more to it than that?

And FJ, I must say, as much of an ass as you can be, you really are a wealth of knowledge. I've learned plenty from your posts and I thank you. MWR, you too, man. You guys are assets to the community.

modulation is tonicization extended over much longer period of time.

look at it this way: tonicization is like an allusion toa key area; it's hinted at, but the song is never really 'in' that particular key area. its sort of like a little teaser.

but a modulation is a much more profound shift and is much more difficult to establish. when you modulated to a key area, its as if though you are actually 'in' a new key area.

[fatjack]

Okay. But how do those chords (Bb & Bm7b5) work within the key of C? It works for me tonically (or is it tonally?), because I've never cared for the sound of diminished chords in my music, but why is it okay to deviate from the original key for just one chord? It seems that you'd need to tonicize for more than just one chord without throwing the sounding off. Or is it okay just because? I'm okay with that, too, really.

you said it sounds good right? then that should be enough reason for you to "deviate" from a key area. so what if you have to use an accidental? songs would be boring if they didn't tonicized to some extent

[briguy945]

JESUS FUCKIN CHRIST! these boards are goin to goddamn hell! how many god damn fuckin times do i have to tell you that I DID NOT MAKE THAT LIST YOU ASSWIPE. everyone accuses me of being some cocky know it all bastard, i dont claim to know much of anything outside of the fuckin instruments forum and im really fuckin tired of it. i remember when this site used to be fun. now i doublecheck everyfuckin thing i post to make sure theres not some way somebody else can take it that will offend them or give them the wrong idea of me. dont you assholes have anything better to do with your fuckin lives than come to this board and act like A GODDAMN FUCKING DOUCHEBAG to everyone you encounter to vent what i assume must be your sucky life? WHAT THE FUCK! It wouldnt fuckin kill you to have some goddamn common courtesy.

now for a moment lets ignore the rudeness and assholism that so abounds in your post and look at its content... because surely if you are gonna be that big of an asshole there must be some golden knowledge hidden in there. hmmmmm... o wait, there was nothing wrong with what i said... it appears you just wanted to bring up another thread in which i said nothing wrong in order to try and make me look like an idiot. FUCK OFF YOU GODDAMN MOTHER FUCKER. im tryin to help people, as was the goal of the harmonica thread and my post in this thread. in fact, thats the case with most of my posts, whereas with your posts the goal always seems to mock people and allude to this incredible knowledge you possess, and yet you NEVER use it to help anyone ever. either you are a seriously fucked up human being or you just act like an asshole online for no reason.

now back to the thread topic: its also a fairly good chance that whatever chord a basic song starts and ends on is the key.

Dude you suck at message boards. Remember that none of this really matters, it's only a way to share information. I've only read page one of this post so I'm sorry if all this has been said. You basically gave a pretty much bs answer to a question people go to school to be able to answer.

[fatjack]

JESUS FUCKIN CHRIST! these boards are goin to goddamn hell! how many god damn fuckin times do i have to tell you that I DID NOT MAKE THAT LIST YOU ASSWIPE. everyone accuses me of being some cocky know it all bastard, i dont claim to know much of anything outside of the fuckin instruments forum and im really fuckin tired of it. i remember when this site used to be fun. now i doublecheck everyfuckin thing i post to make sure theres not some way somebody else can take it that will offend them or give them the wrong idea of me. dont you assholes have anything better to do with your fuckin lives than come to this board and act like A GODDAMN FUCKING DOUCHEBAG to everyone you encounter to vent what i assume must be your sucky life? WHAT THE FUCK! It wouldnt fuckin kill you to have some goddamn common courtesy.

now for a moment lets ignore the rudeness and assholism that so abounds in your post and look at its content... because surely if you are gonna be that big of an asshole there must be some golden knowledge hidden in there. hmmmmm... o wait, there was nothing wrong with what i said... it appears you just wanted to bring up another thread in which i said nothing wrong in order to try and make me look like an idiot. FUCK OFF YOU GODDAMN MOTHER FUCKER. im tryin to help people, as was the goal of the harmonica thread and my post in this thread. in fact, thats the case with most of my posts, whereas with your posts the goal always seems to mock people and allude to this incredible knowledge you possess, and yet you NEVER use it to help anyone ever. either you are a seriously fucked up human being or you just act like an asshole online for no reason.

now back to the thread topic: its also a fairly good chance that whatever chord a basic song starts and ends on is the key.

Dude you suck at message boards. Remember that none of this really matters, it's only a way to share information. I've only read page one of this post so I'm sorry if all this has been said. You basically gave a pretty much bs answer to a question people go to school to be able to answer.

hahaha, he sucks at messageboards...

[littlefriend]

Well, we can actually figure this out fairly easily.
We know that C maj is:
C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim.

We also know that Amin is the relative minor (meaning it's the same scale starting on the relative note of the major scale) of Cmaj.
So Amin would be:
Am, Bdim, C, Dm, Em, F, G.

That would make the minor pattern:
min, dim, Maj, min, min, Maj, Maj.

I'm pretty sure, anyway.

this cant be correct. FJ said that Dm scale would have an A with it but a F scale would not. so that means an Am scale would have an E maj in it.

this is because the minor scale is not simply a rearrangement of the major scale.

which is why littlefriend's post is not quite correct

the minor scale actually has more than 7 tones in it. this is because it has two scale degree 7s and two scale degree 6's.

this is the minor scale when looked at from a completely modal (Aeolian) context

1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

but there are two other tones: natural 6 and natural 7. the reason there these two tones are included is to make up for the fact that the minor scale does not having a leading tone. the flat degrees are played while descending and the natural degrees when ascending

but these tones apply to harmonization as well. this is most apparent in the V chord. a V chord cannot function as a true V chord unless it is a major triad. if you look at littlefriend's post, he says that the V chord is minor. the reason it must be changed to a major is because scale degree 7 is the third of the V triad. a V chord will not function likes it is supposed to unless it has the leading tone.

look at the D minor scale:

if the V chord was an Am like you are suggesting, then these are the tones: A C E. C is the b7 of the minor scale. since the b7 moves downward, then a V chord will not move to a tonic harmony because there is no pull towards scale degree one.

but if the C# replaces the C, then you have a strong pull towards scale degree 1, and the V chord will function like it is supposed to

That's gonna a take a minute for me to digest. Thanks for the *ahem* clarification, though.

[MWR]

So what exactly is the difference between tonicization and modulation? Do tonicizations occur within a given key and modulations occur within a given scale, or is there more to it than that?

And FJ, I must say, as much of an ass as you can be, you really are a wealth of knowledge. I've learned plenty from your posts and I thank you. MWR, you too, man. You guys are assets to the community.

modulation is tonicization extended over much longer period of time.

look at it this way: tonicization is like an allusion toa key area; it's hinted at, but the song is never really 'in' that particular key area. its sort of like a little teaser.

but a modulation is a much more profound shift and is much more difficult to establish. when you modulated to a key area, its as if though you are actually 'in' a new key area.

Well said.

Tonicization is like going to the drug store around the corner while modulation is like driving into the city to go to work. In both cases you are leaving "home" but with modulation you're leaving for an extended period to the point where you're no longer considered to be at home(original key) instead you're at work(new key). Like fatjack said, modulation is difficult to establish just like it's a harder to drive to the city through traffic and find parking.
That was my lame attempt at laymans terms.

[fatjack]

So what exactly is the difference between tonicization and modulation? Do tonicizations occur within a given key and modulations occur within a given scale, or is there more to it than that?

And FJ, I must say, as much of an ass as you can be, you really are a wealth of knowledge. I've learned plenty from your posts and I thank you. MWR, you too, man. You guys are assets to the community.

modulation is tonicization extended over much longer period of time.

look at it this way: tonicization is like an allusion toa key area; it's hinted at, but the song is never really 'in' that particular key area. its sort of like a little teaser.

but a modulation is a much more profound shift and is much more difficult to establish. when you modulated to a key area, its as if though you are actually 'in' a new key area.

Well said.

Tonicization is like going to the drug store around the corner while modulation is like driving into the city to go to work. In both cases you are leaving "home" but with modulation you're leaving for an extended period to the point where you're no longer considered to be at home(original key) instead you're at work(new key). Like fatjack said, modulation is difficult to establish just like it's a harder to drive to the city through traffic and find parking.
That was my lame attempt at laymans terms.

i felt as if though mine was pretty layman-ish