Agree / Disagree with Dave's War Statement???

[bakemm]

Well.. Im surely not one for bitter arguments, although I've offended my share of acquaintances in my opinions.

I'll take a look at your smoking example first... Lets not get crossed between our words here - bad and evil. Smoking is bad for your health, is it evil? Some (very few) would say that it is evil, possibly destroying the temple of your body, but then there is the other side that would say that rape is not evil. (ugh... may be a poor assumption, but Im going to say rapists don't consider it evil.) It is very true that this decision is primarily based on one's environment, I will give you that, however, for the majority of the human race, there is a general consensus on what is acceptable and not acceptable on the ethical level. (e.g. generally murder, rape, stealing, lying, etc are considered immoral, while mercy, grace, hospitality, and kindness are considered progressive to the morality of the world)

In other words, while some may be devious in their opinions, based on an extreme environment (e.g. strict religious standards, cult standards, psychological instability, parental instability), the majority of the world has a consensus view on morality.

Hoarding food, mates, and territory sounds like some instances of the human race. I hope this doesn't diverge too much into political debate... but while I see the United States "hoarding" food, I don't see this as a purposeful attempt to be superior or inflict harm on others. I do see the United States providing much needed aid throughout the world (although not to the extent that it could).... I think the hoarding of territory is based on higher motives than geographical superiority, I see a great deal of sharing and building of civilizations upon the same soil. I look at Israel and I no longer see a conflict over land, but a conflict over religious indifference, holocaust emotions, and animosity over the zionist movement..... Finally, mates, well, unless you're Mormon, I think I'm right.

And on to Dave's favorite topic... death... Post-death life need not be discussed, and although I believe in life-after-death, I still see death as a stage in life. However, on that desert island, I can perceive living and dead, life and death, and realize on those perceptions that.... 1. I am alive. and... 2. Death doesn't look too good, because you stop moving for as long as I can tell, and you start to smell bad, and small bugs land on you, and you start to decay... so conclusion 3. Life is preferred, and it is wrong for me to take a life... (ugh, which begs the question, is fair/unfair a learned concept)

I'm done thinking for now... be back later tonight

[isaac]

ah yes. good old words. recognized utterances of sounds and grunts. i think they're incredibly limiting. when you're in a room and you feel the "mood" change, i think that's the greatest form of communication. but that's a random tangent. delves into ideas of energy and physics and well, quite bleh.

anyway, you are right about there being a general consensus on right and wrong. i guess my question is where is the root of ethics, anyway? there are too many fine lines, and that's the problem. for instance, sometimes it's grace and mercy to murder i.e. euthanasia, but other times it isn't. there are too many variables to right and wrong.

as for expansion and hoarding of territory, there's a large difference between sharing and building of civilizations upon the same soil and doing it for useless purposes, which is what we seem to be doing now, though it's probably just the environmentalist speaking in me. in these past few months, i've seen 3 banks take out trees that are helping keep us alive on the same damn street. that's not useful. we're not making do with the land we have now.

and it will probably turn to a political debate when it comes to the US. so many things right, so many things wrong. again, my idealism comes shining through in this situation, but maybe it's not idealism but realism that's masked by poor decisions. just think about all the food we throw away each and every single day, and juxtapose that against the number of starving families in the United States. sickening.

as for foreign aid, i think it just makes America look better. that's all. largely ignore the problem until we make it look like we're the hero. but that's just me, and a lot of people will argue, which is fine.

as for death, i do agree in life-after-death, but there is no "after death" because death, as you said, is a stage in life. part of it, not a separate entity.

as for the island example, take into consideration that there might be other animals on the island. bugs, birds, etc. what if the person saw this each and every day, but had no preconcieved notion of the subject? would the person observe that everything was in balance...if one number of species got too great, another would slowly die out, if another would slowly die out, so would another. everything in an infinite chain of life. i think humans mess with that chain too much. superiority complex.

as for fair/unfair...that's a whole notha subject, foo. questions are good. lead to more questions...and maybe we'll never know the truth while we're here. but it's damn fun trying.

[Granny33]

i really liked what you wrote bakemm (sorry isaac i'll read your's when i get more time)

[bakemm]

Sorry for the long period between responses - I hade a date with Lord of the Rings last night

Funny that you should mention that about cutting down trees. I was about to mention it last time, but decided it might be a worthless example. So those 3 banks went up, I still don't see the hoarding and uselessness of it. It was not a blatant attempt to destroy the trees but rather the ignorance of seeing the whole picture. If that makes any sense. I would agree that we are not making do with the land we have... but we could be doing a lot worse, we have a minute sense of environmentalism, and it gets us by.

Too many variables to right and wrong.... wow, if that doesn't sum it all up right there... but think about it this way. The second law of thermodynamics says that the world is in decay, and I think that is true at more than just the physical level, it is the same at the moral level. Concessions to moral issues continue to flourish, whether that be abortion, death penalty, rape, adultery, etc. The strict enforcement of moral regulations continues to diminish throughout Western culture. What does that tell me? At some point the strict moral standards were set in place, and since then the lines have blurred, and morality has become one huge grey area..... I dont know if that made any sense whatsoever.

I dont think foreign aid is just a move to make America look better, it is an attempt to better the world we live in. As Meri says to the ents in "Two Towers" - "you're part of this world aren't you?" It just makes sense to help out. (Then again, the ents only helped when they became threatened...) As a world community, I think America stands well on the platform of helping others (AIDS in Africa has been the big one for me).

I gotta go think some more... anyways, I'm watching "Two Towers" again tonight... hehehe

Peace

[isaac]

heh. lotr is cool. i got my dvd screener a month after it came out...watched it a lot. awesome flick.

anyway, on to the long posts. hehe.

"we could be doing a lot worse, we have a minute sense of environmentalism, and it gets us by."

but for how long? how long can we continue letting out toxic into the ozone layer? how long can we continue to cut down rainforests, and say it's okay because we plant 3 trees for every 1 we cut down, but those trees will take hundreds of years before they're grown to the size of the original tree? we can't ignore the problem forever. but we continue to do so, until it has a very remote affect on us. we could be doing a little worse...not a lot. i think we're pretty bad as it is.

i agree with you on the moral decay, though. we're just not as sensitive anymore. but that's due to advancement of technology, and thus the rapid spread of ideas...which includes a lot of very very bad ones. but they're there, yet no one really takes responsibility for it.

as for foreign aid, the world shouldn't be in a condition where there needs to be "bettering of the world we live in." yes, it makes sense to help out, but not at your own liesure. i think for every dime we give to aid, we spend a dollar on military, but that's just an exagerration for argument purposes.

as for the threatened ents, that's how it is with America. we didn't really take an aggressive effort to shut down terrorism until it hit our soil. we would report it in the news, and it would be everyday casualty for us, but when people mess with us, oh no, here comes big bad America to save the day!

i think it was some country, like Bosnia that we bombed the fuck out of the day Columbine happened. did anyone really hear about it? no. more innocents were probably killed in that bombing than in Columbine.

as for AIDS in Africa, we're not really doing anything. we're just giving money. it doesn't seem like the problem's being solved...let's just toss a few dollars for every person and hope that it turns out all right.

but i'm just bitter, and so my view's a bit deluded. apologies for that.

anyway, enjoy your Two Towers.

[Ando]

I haven't seen two towers yet, but my bro got it.. So ill check it out this weekend..

I played the game for PS2 and it was badass.. especially with all of those movie cutscenes

[bakemm]

I return...

I definitely agree with you on the side that the environment must be nourished back toa healthy standard. We have dropped below that standard, primarily, I think, because of overpopulition and urban sprawl. There are numerous parks throughout the US harbouring trasured forest and pristine land, and this much makes me smile. Strong environmentalists really piss me off sometimes though. For example, I cant trim this damn tree so my view of the water is better because it is destroying the environment? Damn environmentalists, if you care that much about a stinkin tree, why dont you strap on a firefighters uniform and go spray some water on British Columbia before every tree in the province burns down. I think there are enough environmentalists in our world to keep the rainforests alive, the parks pure, and the ozone at a sufficiently even keel.

That is so true about America. There was a dramatic change in US foreign policy after September 11th to shut down terrorism before it happens. I think this was more than a don't mess with us statement (although it was this) but, rather, now the US had the political, and emotional support from its citizens to try and shut down flourishing terrorist networks.... and thus we seque back to the original topic of this thread....

I trust a lot in Bush and the leaders of our country. I don't give a rats ass what Bush's IQ is, or what his SAT score was. He is surrounding by brilliant people who all collaborate to make informed decisions. The $15 billion going to AIDS in Africa will be spent wisely. The US has learned from the past not to give the money directly to foreign government officials to spend at their will, but rather to target organizations in whom the money will be spent wisely. With millions of AIDS orphans in Africa, the US knows that things won't be turning out alright anytime soon, but it is paving the road.

As Bono from U2 said when he was addressing the Harvard graduating class... our generation will be known for two things - the internet, and the daily holocaust that occurs in Africa from AIDS...

At least we are doing something about it.

Peace

PS. Two Towers was incredible once again.