My Double Bass Recording!

[i am sam2]

yes i have tried to play cello and violin before, it is very difficult

this "lack of frets" problem is not just something you can get a handle on easily, especially if you are used to having frets. unless you have actually tried instruments that require the player to control intonation, then it might be hard for me to explain how difficult it is.

with a guitar all you have to do is tune the string correctly and then press down behind the fret. and there you go, there's your note. but with a cello, you have to make sure the string is tuned properly (which is more difficult to do with instruments in the violin family, AND you have to press your finger in the EXACT spot, without the use of any kind of markings

and lets not forget getting proper technique with a bow, MUCH more difficult to do than just strum or pick

and then there's the fact that the guitar is just a comfortable instrument to play. think about it: your neck bent to the side with a violin or viola, or a massive cello or double bass: these aren't exactly easy instruments to wield

well ive never tried playin any classical instruments but ive played fretless bass many times and i know what you mean. the bow was somethin i forgot about, so yeah you have to learn that, but if you take two guys whove never seen a guitar or cello (for example) its not necessarily going to harder for dude A to learn the bow than for dude B to learn the pick. is it? it seems(though, again, i dont have any first hand experience so i dont know) that a bow would just take the getting used to. mahler says he has trouble with guitar, possibly because hes used to double bass? id bet the same would be for me or you or pat or whoever, having trouble playin double bass, cuz were used to guitar...do you see what im sayin?

[fatjack]

yes i have tried to play cello and violin before, it is very difficult

this "lack of frets" problem is not just something you can get a handle on easily, especially if you are used to having frets. unless you have actually tried instruments that require the player to control intonation, then it might be hard for me to explain how difficult it is.

with a guitar all you have to do is tune the string correctly and then press down behind the fret. and there you go, there's your note. but with a cello, you have to make sure the string is tuned properly (which is more difficult to do with instruments in the violin family, AND you have to press your finger in the EXACT spot, without the use of any kind of markings

and lets not forget getting proper technique with a bow, MUCH more difficult to do than just strum or pick

and then there's the fact that the guitar is just a comfortable instrument to play. think about it: your neck bent to the side with a violin or viola, or a massive cello or double bass: these aren't exactly easy instruments to wield

well ive never tried playin any classical instruments but ive played fretless bass many times and i know what you mean. the bow was somethin i forgot about, so yeah you have to learn that, but if you take two guys whove never seen a guitar or cello (for example) its not necessarily going to harder for dude A to learn the bow than for dude B to learn the pick. is it? it seems(though, again, i dont have any first hand experience so i dont know) that a bow would just take the getting used to. mahler says he has trouble with guitar, possibly because hes used to double bass? id bet the same would be for me or you or pat or whoever, having trouble playin double bass, cuz were used to guitar...do you see what im sayin?

yes i see what you are saying, but take this example:

i'm basically on the same musical level as all my freshman music classmates that play classical instruments, but there another difference between us other than our instruments. most of these people have been playing since they were children. i didn't start playing guitar until i was almost 16. they have twice the experience as i do, but we are on the same comparative levels on our instruments. do you see what im saying now?

[fatjack]

alrighty, i gotcha.

who is that in your avatar?

me

[i am sam2]

yes i see what you are saying, but take this example:

i'm basically on the same musical level as all my freshman music classmates that play classical instruments, but there another difference between us other than our instruments. most of these people have been playing since they were children. i didn't start playing guitar until i was almost 16. they have twice the experience as i do, but we are on the same comparative levels on our instruments. do you see what im saying now?

well thats a so-so example cuz you could have practiced more even though in fewer years and they could have been slackers, but i DO see what youre saying, that its taken them far longer to get to a certain musical level than it has taken you to get to the same point. but assuming neither of you "slacked off" yeah that makes sense, good point

[MahlerGrooves]

As far as skill level required, I remain neutral, as I do not want to upset anyone. The use of the bow is NOT something to be taken lightly. My teachers, in Germany and NY, all say that they bow is the most important; it is what gives a player his/her individual "voice."

We all finger the notes the same. There are only so many fingerings for a g major scale, and we are almost always in agreement as to which is better in a certain scenario. The main difference is bow technique. I have been able to play pretty well in tune ever since I started because I have really good pitch, but until two years ago, I sounded like a child because my bow arm was too tense (I actually tore a ligament in my right forearm from too much pressure using the bow).

As for the intonation issue, the problem is made more difficult when playing with a piano. The bass, and most orchestral instruments, are untempered, meaning they play "pure" pitches. The piano, for each octave to have the same timbre and exact intonation, needs to be adjusted. The intervals of a third (ex C-E) are tuned slightly flat and the fifths (ex C - G) have to be sharpened to offset this. So when I play with a piano, I have to "relearn" intonation during the first five minutes or so, and trying to get my fingers to move any distance other than the exact one I learned is like trying to intentionally stop breathing - it is SO much second nature by now that it is impossible.

I find that these finger distances and shifting distances are what hamper my guitar playing. I am not used to the small spaces between notes (I am one of few people I know who will NEVER cramp up even after playing Crash for 25 minutes), and the use of many fingers at once is also tough (though in the Bach that I recorded, chords and double stops are all over the place).

The ONLY area I will say that classical instruments require more "work" is that they really do require a sound knowledge of theory right away. During my first lessons, learning intervals and chord functions were sa much as part of my time as learning notes. It is how I know when to play my F# high (as a leading tone in G major) or a little flat (as the third in D major...THIS is all now automatic as well). Overall I find that my friends who go to music school with me and are classically trained know more theory than my guitar playing buddies. But I suspect this is the product of my not having to take a biology class and taking "Advanced harmony and Counterpoint" instead, so I do not count that difference.

JS Bach once said "If you put the right finger in the right place at the right time, any instrument plays itself!" He was DEFINATELY low balling it. I believe that all instruments require a cinsiderable effort. Some, like the piano and guitar, have ease of intonation but difficulty in he technical perfection required to play complex and fast things. Others, like my double bass, are maybe simpler in regard to number of notes played at one time, but require more focus on the intonation of an individual note. To me, it is six of one, and half a dozen of another.

[thejoe]

how often do you change replace strings on a classical instrument?

and those instrument value figures are astonishing

[i am sam2]

exquisite post^^

EDIT: damnit not you crash

[MahlerGrooves]

how often do you change replace strings on a classical instrument?

and those instrument value figures are astonishing

I usually change my strings once per year (a little more if I go on tour becuase the air travel fucks with them), and I have my bow rehaired every 3 months.

But a set of my DB strings is $250 8)

As for the instrument figures, those guys are ALL making $120,000+ per year, and they get no interest loans for instrument purchases from their orchestras, so they can afford it.

[MahlerGrooves]

exquisite post^^

EDIT: damnit not you crash

Thanks. I figure if I give objective info, everyone can decide for themselves.

[thejoe]

The bass, and most orchestral instruments, are untempered, meaning they play "pure" pitches. The piano, for each octave to have the same timbre and exact intonation, needs to be adjusted. The intervals of a third (ex C-E) are tuned slightly flat and the fifths (ex C - G) have to be sharpened to offset this. So when I play with a piano, I have to "relearn" intonation during the first five minutes or so,

please explain this more
i thought i understood it, but then the more i thought about it the mroe confused i was

mainly the "untempered" part

[MahlerGrooves]

The bass, and most orchestral instruments, are untempered, meaning they play "pure" pitches. The piano, for each octave to have the same timbre and exact intonation, needs to be adjusted. The intervals of a third (ex C-E) are tuned slightly flat and the fifths (ex C - G) have to be sharpened to offset this. So when I play with a piano, I have to "relearn" intonation during the first five minutes or so,

please explain this more
i thought i understood it, but then the more i thought about it the mroe confused i was

mainly the "untempered" part

I actually wrote an entire physics paper on this when I actually wanted to be a physicist (it was my app paper to MIT).

The pitches we hear are not the natural tones of the overtone series. Instruments that rely on the splitting of a string or the length of a column of air produce these sounds becuase of the nature of their construction (the ratios used to space the holes in a flute, for example).

These pitches all get slightly farther apart as they get higher in octaves during their occurance in the overtone series. The adjusting of pitches to keep them relatively the same is called "tempering."

Instruments such as bass, with fully adjustable intonation, are NOT tempered because any frequenzy can be made (440hz, 441hz and 442hz are all acceptable for the pitch A depending on the specific orchestra). They, therefore, are called "untempered" instruments or "natural" instruments.

I will, for the moment, skip wind instruments, as the formulae used to temper them enough while preserving their different tone colors in each range ("timbres"), are beyond complex and require multi-variable calculus (they actually were originally created using the laws for harmonic planetary motion, the golden section (6.8 ) and Pi).

Pianos have it worse. They are required to have the same tone and be "in tune" all accross the board. Well, if you play an octave above A-440, it should be 880hz, but it ISNT! It is actually 880.375hz. This "left over" is called the "Pythagorean Comma" and is the source of ALL tuning problems.

To compensate for this, the piano tuners need to make up the difference (an extra 0.375hz) for an octave to be in tune. To do this, they increase the distance of the fifth, and, to balance this out slightly, flatten the major third (don't ask me how).

That is how and why every C on a piano is exactly the same, and every F# is the same (they are a tritone apart, and usually the most out of tune.).

You guys can experiment with this. Use an electronic tuner. Plug your guitar into it and tune every string to EXACTLY the right pitch (not even .5hz off. It will not work!). Now, you should hear, when playing the g on the low e string against the open b string, it sounds wrong. Welcome to the need to temper.

I will post my entire paper once I get back to germany. It is on my computer there, and includes calculations, charts, and a WHOLE lot of cool info. It was one of my best pieces of work.

Sorry that this is SO confusing, but I helped as best I can.

[dmbguitar718]

The bass, and most orchestral instruments, are untempered, meaning they play "pure" pitches. The piano, for each octave to have the same timbre and exact intonation, needs to be adjusted. The intervals of a third (ex C-E) are tuned slightly flat and the fifths (ex C - G) have to be sharpened to offset this. So when I play with a piano, I have to "relearn" intonation during the first five minutes or so,

please explain this more
i thought i understood it, but then the more i thought about it the mroe confused i was

mainly the "untempered" part

I actually wrote an entire physics paper on this when I actually wanted to be a physicist (it was my app paper to MIT).

The pitches we hear are not the natural tones of the overtone series. Instruments that rely on the splitting of a string or the length of a column of air produce these sounds becuase of the nature of their construction (the ratios used to space the holes in a flute, for example).

These pitches all get slightly farther apart as they get higher in octaves during their occurance in the overtone series. The adjusting of pitches to keep them relatively the same is called "tempering."

Instruments such as bass, with fully adjustable intonation, are NOT tempered because any frequenzy can be made (440hz, 441hz and 442hz are all acceptable for the pitch A depending on the specific orchestra). They, therefore, are called "untempered" instruments or "natural" instruments.

I will, for the moment, skip wind instruments, as the formulae used to temper them enough while preserving their different tone colors in each range ("timbres"), are beyond complex and require multi-variable calculus (they actually were originally created using the laws for harmonic planetary motion, the golden section (6.8 ) and Pi).

Pianos have it worse. They are required to have the same tone and be "in tune" all accross the board. Well, if you play an octave above A-440, it should be 880hz, but it ISNT! It is actually 880.375hz. This "left over" is called the "Pythagorean Comma" and is the source of ALL tuning problems.

To compensate for this, the piano tuners need to make up the difference (an extra 0.375hz) for an octave to be in tune. To do this, they increase the distance of the fifth, and, to balance this out slightly, flatten the major third (don't ask me how).

That is how and why every C on a piano is exactly the same, and every F# is the same (they are a tritone apart, and usually the most out of tune.).

You guys can experiment with this. Use an electronic tuner. Plug your guitar into it and tune every string to EXACTLY the right pitch (not even .5hz off. It will not work!). Now, you should hear, when playing the g on the low e string against the open b string, it sounds wrong. Welcome to the need to temper.

I will post my entire paper once I get back to germany. It is on my computer there, and includes calculations, charts, and a WHOLE lot of cool info. It was one of my best pieces of work.

Sorry that this is SO confusing, but I helped as best I can.

you are incredible. i respect you so much, man. really, i do.

[MahlerGrooves]

Thanks. I really appreciate that.

I would love to hear how all of you fare with the guitar tuning experiment. It is SO cool, eh?

[fatjack]

The bass, and most orchestral instruments, are untempered, meaning they play "pure" pitches. The piano, for each octave to have the same timbre and exact intonation, needs to be adjusted. The intervals of a third (ex C-E) are tuned slightly flat and the fifths (ex C - G) have to be sharpened to offset this. So when I play with a piano, I have to "relearn" intonation during the first five minutes or so,

please explain this more
i thought i understood it, but then the more i thought about it the mroe confused i was

mainly the "untempered" part

I actually wrote an entire physics paper on this when I actually wanted to be a physicist (it was my app paper to MIT).

The pitches we hear are not the natural tones of the overtone series. Instruments that rely on the splitting of a string or the length of a column of air produce these sounds becuase of the nature of their construction (the ratios used to space the holes in a flute, for example).

These pitches all get slightly farther apart as they get higher in octaves during their occurance in the overtone series. The adjusting of pitches to keep them relatively the same is called "tempering."

Instruments such as bass, with fully adjustable intonation, are NOT tempered because any frequenzy can be made (440hz, 441hz and 442hz are all acceptable for the pitch A depending on the specific orchestra). They, therefore, are called "untempered" instruments or "natural" instruments.

I will, for the moment, skip wind instruments, as the formulae used to temper them enough while preserving their different tone colors in each range ("timbres"), are beyond complex and require multi-variable calculus (they actually were originally created using the laws for harmonic planetary motion, the golden section (6.8 ) and Pi).

Pianos have it worse. They are required to have the same tone and be "in tune" all accross the board. Well, if you play an octave above A-440, it should be 880hz, but it ISNT! It is actually 880.375hz. This "left over" is called the "Pythagorean Comma" and is the source of ALL tuning problems.

To compensate for this, the piano tuners need to make up the difference (an extra 0.375hz) for an octave to be in tune. To do this, they increase the distance of the fifth, and, to balance this out slightly, flatten the major third (don't ask me how).

That is how and why every C on a piano is exactly the same, and every F# is the same (they are a tritone apart, and usually the most out of tune.).

You guys can experiment with this. Use an electronic tuner. Plug your guitar into it and tune every string to EXACTLY the right pitch (not even .5hz off. It will not work!). Now, you should hear, when playing the g on the low e string against the open b string, it sounds wrong. Welcome to the need to temper.

I will post my entire paper once I get back to germany. It is on my computer there, and includes calculations, charts, and a WHOLE lot of cool info. It was one of my best pieces of work.

Sorry that this is SO confusing, but I helped as best I can.

yeah, the problem with tuning perfectly... you can't!

[thejoe]

i kinda get it.. and i dont have a real tuner, just one of those digital needle ones and a boss stompbox tuner

i usually dont have to be that concerned about intonation, im just a hobbiest