Ask Fatjack

[fatjack]

i have a question. i go to looknohands.com and look at the scales, and there are three minor scales. harmonic, melodic (ascending), and melodic (decending). what is the difference between these? and how do they relate to major scales, because to build a minor chord from a major, you lower the 3rd a half and the 7th a whole.

wonderful question: one the i will enjoy answering.

first of all, the melodic minor is the just one scale, but you have to play it differently when you ascend and descend. when you ascend you play the 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7. when you descend you play the natural minor (1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7). this is strictly in a classical sense, most guitarists wont change whether they are going up and down because it just gets too complicated and makes the scale very difficult to use.

and how do they relate to the major scale you ask? simple, they dont (except for of course what degrees are used). the melodic and harmonic minors don't translate to major scales. basically, they are a whole different set of keys. although you wont see "the key of B harmonic minor," they have completely different key sigs from any major scale. think of it this way, there are 12 different major scales, 12 different harmonic minor scales, and 12 different melodic minor scales. because they don't relate to any other major scale, they are harmonized completely different and thusly have different chords. in fact, the harmonic minor scale has a degree that can be either a major or minor chord

and if you were looking for how to build the scales, i already gave you the melodic, and the harmonic would be the 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7

do these scales relate to minor chords? can you have a harmonic and melodic minor chords?

no, there are no such things as harmonic minor or melodic minor chords. if you are in A harmonic (or melodic minor) the root chord is Am

[MWR]

You can build chords from any scale but it gets pretty crazy as you get further from the major scale. All you have to do is take the First, Third, and Fifth degree of each scale tone to build the basic harmony. You can always add more tones like the 7th, 9th etc.

I'll use Harmonic Minor as and example.
Harmonic minor harmony with the seventh added is:
Im(maj7), IIm7b5, IIImaj7aug, IVm7, V7, VImaj7, VIIdim.

You can see how complex the harmony becomes particularly when you start adding the 7th, 9th, 11th etc. The harmonic minor scale is generaly reserved for playing over minor-major 7th chords (really dark and creepy sounding) which is usually the I chord. It's also used for improvising over the V7 chord. Often times your switching between natural minor and harmonic minor depending on what chord is coming.

Keep in mind that this kind of complex harmony is usually jazz related and you will almost never see it in pop/rock music. Although Yngwie Malmsteen and Randy Rhoads used the Harmonic Minor a lot during that neo-classical phase in the 80's
It's also helpful to know that you can use these scales over simple harmony as long as the quality (major or minor) of the chord is the same or if your playing over a one chord vamp. Last Stop is a good example as there's only one actual chord during the verse, F#.

When you get into advanced and ethnic scales this method of building harmony doesn't really apply. Middle eastern music is often atonal meaning it doesnt have a chord progression so it would obviously make no sense to build chords from the scale.

[fatjack]

You can build chords from any scale but it gets pretty crazy as you get further from the major scale. All you have to do is take the First, Third, and Fifth degree of each scale tone to build the basic harmony. You can always add more tones like the 7th, 9th etc.

I'll use Harmonic Minor as and example.
Harmonic minor harmony with the seventh added is:
Im(maj7), IIm7b5, IIImaj7aug, IVm7, V7, VImaj7, VIIdim.

You can see how complex the harmony becomes particularly when you start adding the 7th, 9th, 11th etc. The harmonic minor scale is generaly reserved for playing over minor-major 7th chords (really dark and creepy sounding) which is usually the I chord. It's also used for improvising over the V7 chord. Often times your switching between natural minor and harmonic minor depending on what chord is coming.

Keep in mind that this kind of complex harmony is usually jazz related and you will almost never see it in pop/rock music. Although Yngwie Malmsteen and Randy Rhoads used the Harmonic Minor a lot during that neo-classical phase in the 80's
It's also helpful to know that you can use these scales over simple harmony as long as the quality (major or minor) of the chord is the same or if your playing over a one chord vamp. Last Stop is a good example as there's only one actual chord during the verse, F#.

When you get into advanced and ethnic scales this method of building harmony doesn't really apply. Middle eastern music is often atonal meaning it doesnt have a chord progression so it would obviously make no sense to build chords from the scale.

yes!

one day i was bored in math last year, so i harmonized the harmonic and melodic minor scales and went through a bunch of crazy chord extensions. that one and a half step is friggin awesome

[MWR]

I was reading an interview with Stone Gossard in Guitar player and he had some good thoughts on eastern music. He was talking about how western music has that very obvious major/minor sound whereas eastern music is a lot more ambiguous and how life is generaly more grey than black and white. It's always been an area of music that I have a particular interest in.
I highly recommend giving Tim Sparks a listen if your into the Eastern sound.

[fatjack]

I was reading an interview with Stone Gossard in Guitar player and he had some good thoughts on eastern music. He was talking about how western music has that very obvious major/minor sound whereas eastern music is a lot more ambiguous and how life is generaly more grey than black and white. It's always been an area of music that I have a particular interest in.
I highly recommend giving Tim Sparks a listen if your into the Eastern sound.

tim sparks eh? whats he play?

[MWR]

Guitar...duh.

I only ever listen to one other instrument and thats the piccolo.

[fatjack]

Guitar...duh.

I only ever listen to one other instrument and thats the piccolo.

haha, what other kind of instrumentation does he play along with?

[whatshername]

so, uh..why are you so sexy..eh, josh? :rawr:

i dunno...

have you turned into sarah with that "rawr"

i was unaware she did that. but i do think she's rubbing off on me a little bit, though.

[MWR]

Guitar...duh.

I only ever listen to one other instrument and thats the piccolo.

haha, what other kind of instrumentation does he play along with?

Most of what I've hear is solo acoustic with occasional percussion. He's been around for a while and is pretty well respected. Leo Kottke considers him one of best.

[fatjack]

Guitar...duh.

I only ever listen to one other instrument and thats the piccolo.

haha, what other kind of instrumentation does he play along with?

Most of what I've hear is solo acoustic with occasional percussion. He's been around for a while and is pretty well respected. Leo Kottke considers him one of best.

interesting...

[dmb_tatertot]

Fatjack: Question for you!

Are you going to put an entry into the cover contest or not dude! I'm sure hoping so. Post in that thread if you are!

Peace

( http://www.dmbtabs.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=10650 )

[fatjack]

Fatjack: Question for you!

Are you going to put an entry into the cover contest or not dude! I'm sure hoping so. Post in that thread if you are!

Peace

( http://www.dmbtabs.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=10650 )

why do you want me to do that?

and no, i cant sing and im not doing anymore dmb covers

[cpowell21]

I dont want to steal your thunder fatjack or MWR but for entry into theory (which is definately the category that I am in) I found this site http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~desm ... /acoustic/ to be very helpful. The more I learn the more I understand how little I know and not only that but to be able to use this stuff is almost incomprehensible(sp) for me(because it has to be 2nd nature to use it effectively)

[TurnItToLove]

I dont want to steal your thunder fatjack or MWR but for entry into theory (which is definately the category that I am in) I found this site http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~desm ... /acoustic/ to be very helpful. The more I learn the more I understand how little I know and not only that but to be able to use this stuff is almost incomprehensible(sp) for me(because it has to be 2nd nature to use it effectively)

thats an awesome site man, thanks for posting it

[fatjack]

I dont want to steal your thunder fatjack or MWR but for entry into theory (which is definately the category that I am in) I found this site http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~desm ... /acoustic/ to be very helpful. The more I learn the more I understand how little I know and not only that but to be able to use this stuff is almost incomprehensible(sp) for me(because it has to be 2nd nature to use it effectively)

thats an awesome site man, thanks for posting it

im still better than that