can someone explain modes to me?

[Appfro]

yes please, carry on. great stuff, this stuff is classic for song writing

[MWR]

Anyone have questions or problems? I'll get some more info up but I'd like to clear the air before I do.


Pat, congrats on the lessons. Let me know what kind of stuff he's teaching you.

[Usaj88]

hmm I know this is going to sound weird as I have like a total of 0 posts here but I've been 'lurking' the site for quite some time, anyway, where about near Sacramento do you live MWR.. just curious haha. I've been playing guitar for about 6 months and a dave fan for about 5 and half months... I'm not inquiring about lessons or anything Im sure it'd be a pain trying to teach someone as new as me anything meaningful lol

[dmbguitar718]

Anyone have questions or problems? I'll get some more info up but I'd like to clear the air before I do.


Pat, congrats on the lessons. Let me know what kind of stuff he's teaching you.

Well, we started off with, you know, basic stuff. Scales, rhythms, and some harmonies. I brought him my recording of Solitude to my lesson today to show him what I'm doing now, what I like to do etc. I think he changed some stuff around, and we're going to go a slightly different route, with deeper stuff. Should be awesome.

[MWR]

hmm I know this is going to sound weird as I have like a total of 0 posts here but I've been 'lurking' the site for quite some time, anyway, where about near Sacramento do you live MWR.. just curious haha. I've been playing guitar for about 6 months and a dave fan for about 5 and half months... I'm not inquiring about lessons or anything Im sure it'd be a pain trying to teach someone as new as me anything meaningful lol

I'm in Davis about 15 minutes south of Sac.

When you're new to it all everything you learn is meaningful. Also, guitar players are notorius for being musically inept so if you start learning this stuff early on you'll have a leg up on the next guy.

[MWR]

Anyone have questions or problems? I'll get some more info up but I'd like to clear the air before I do.


Pat, congrats on the lessons. Let me know what kind of stuff he's teaching you.

Well, we started off with, you know, basic stuff. Scales, rhythms, and some harmonies. I brought him my recording of Solitude to my lesson today to show him what I'm doing now, what I like to do etc. I think he changed some stuff around, and we're going to go a slightly different route, with deeper stuff. Should be awesome.

Good to hear. You think you'll do some open mic's or coffe shop gigs soon?

[fatjack]

i just saw this thread, let me read your long ass post mwr and see if i can add anything

[MWR]

i just saw this thread, let me read your long ass post mwr and see if i can add anything

Please do. I kept it as simple as possible and assumed nothing as far as what people already know. It's tough trying to teach other people because we each have our own way of understanding it. Oh well I hope it helped.

[fatjack]

i just saw this thread, let me read your long ass post mwr and see if i can add anything

Please do. I kept it as simple as possible and assumed nothing as far as what people already know. It's tough trying to teach other people because we each have our own way of understanding it. Oh well I hope it helped.

i think there is one thing that you have neglected to mention:

MODES ARE NOT KEYS!

i know you didn't say that they are, but its quite easy to get something like this confused, so i wanted to clarify for everyone else.

What I mean by this is that you wouldn't say something is in the key of a mode. No song is in C Ionian, C Mixolydian etc. The key of a song is either major or minor, its that simple. C major or C minor. This is because modes aren't actually scales, they are scale FORMS.

To understand this fully, you have to have a concept of how tonality works. Tonality is a fancy way of saying music that is based on a central tone (or note). A piece of tonal music that is in C (major or minor) is centered around the pitch C, meaning that all dissonances introduced into a song will eventually resolve back to C.

The concept of dissonance and resolution is based upon stability. The most stable note of a song in C, is of course C. The next most stable note is the fifth (which in the case of C is G, and then the 3rd (in C major E and in C minor Eb)

So what does this have to do with modes being scale forms instead of scales?

As MWR explained, the differences in the modes are very minute. In the case of his example, the only difference between Dorian and Aeolian is the sixth degree of the scale. What this means is that the "minor" flavor of the song stays the same regardless of whether or not one of our "non-stable" tones is altered. You will still resolve eventually to 1, b3, and 5.

So, my main point is basically this: there is not such thing as a song in E Phrygian or D Aeolian etc. A song is either major or minor, its as simple as that.

This is a very brief description of how tonality works, but I hope it clears some stuff up. If you have any questions, ask away.

[gumbomadness]

good job fatjack. thats what i meant by flavors

[dmbsaxboyz]

So, my main point is basically this: there is not such thing as a song in E Phrygian or D Aeolian etc. A song is either major or minor, its as simple as that.

o.0

I have come across many charts referred to in 'modes'... they are indicated by the key signature and the tonal center yes, but you would say that tune is in E phrygian. for my guitar final last semester I played a tune in D phrygian. how would you then distinguish between a song clearly in C minor versus a song clearing in C phrygian?

i was going to add the my guitar professor gave me a cd a while back with some modal grooves so i could practice improvising. when i get home from spring break i'll find it and post it up. it's really good stuff, just a lot of fun to play for such a great learning tool too.

[gumbomadness]

you woudnt say C phrygian, you would say Ab major..

i think. fatjack help.

Ya, you dont name song keys by the mode, you name them ofcourse by there major, minor, harmonic minor, relative minor, or melodic minor name.
unless you go into crazy-ass ethnic scales like Hindistani and stuff.

[fatjack]

So, my main point is basically this: there is not such thing as a song in E Phrygian or D Aeolian etc. A song is either major or minor, its as simple as that.

o.0

I have come across many charts referred to in 'modes'... they are indicated by the key signature and the tonal center yes, but you would say that tune is in E phrygian. for my guitar final last semester I played a tune in D phrygian. how would you then distinguish between a song clearly in C minor versus a song clearing in C phrygian?

i was going to add the my guitar professor gave me a cd a while back with some modal grooves so i could practice improvising. when i get home from spring break i'll find it and post it up. it's really good stuff, just a lot of fun to play for such a great learning tool too.

you would still say that the song was in C minor, the different notes are just treated as accidentals. a piece can have a phrygian feel (most predominantly made by the b2), but you still wouldn't say that the song is "in C phrygian." its as simple as saying that a song is in C minor centered around the phrygian mode

[fatjack]

you woudnt say C phrygian, you would say Ab major..

i think. fatjack help.

Ya, you dont name song keys by the mode, you name them ofcourse by there major, minor, harmonic minor, relative minor, or melodic minor name.
unless you go into crazy-ass ethnic scales like Hindistani and stuff.

NO, its just major or minor. harmonic and melodic minor are scale FORMS, and relative minor is a term used for relating key signatures

[dmbsaxboyz]

you would still say that the song was in C minor, the different notes are just treated as accidentals. a piece can have a phrygian feel (most predominantly made by the b2), but you still wouldn't say that the song is "in C phrygian." its as simple as saying that a song is in C minor centered around the phrygian mode

ahh i asked my traditional harmony proff, and he said that it just as you say, still C minor. he also said that the harmony dept. (jazz harmony to be exact) doesn't like to call it that. so that's prolly where I got used to it - berklee is weird o.o