can someone explain modes to me?

[Appfro]

i know my major and pentatonic scales very well. i'm trying to expand, but like mwr said, nothing i've read has made sense really as far as modes go. ok, actually, you guys did very well and i really do understand what they are. i'll have to memorize them in order and stuff so i can know that the e phrygian is the c scale starting w/ the e note, but i get it.

now my question is, and mwr started to talk about it, is how do you know when you can use the mode. if you can't use d dorian in a c-g-am-f so what can you use it in. and what exactly does a dorian sound sound like anyway. are their any particular songs you guys can think of that have a dorian, phygian, or etc sound?

thanks for the help though, between the four of you i understand the concept.

[Speenis]

There should be more stickies in this forum. This is good stuff. There are other threads too dealing with scales, keys, etc... that should be stickied.

[czech]

It's nearly impossible to explain modes in a nutshell.
Also if you're new to music theory and can't describe what makes a major scale major and a minor minor than you should study up some more. Pay particular attention to the chord-scale relationship and how you go about building triads and extended chords from the major scale. And keep reading about modes just don't expect to understand for quite a while.
Every time you read an article or book you take a small piece along and eventually you'll be able to put them together. Just don't get discouraged or you'll never understand it.

My only piece of direct advice is:
The harmony must agree with the melody. You can't play a D Dorian scale over a C-G-Am-F progression and expect to get a Dorian sound. Each mode has it's own set of chords and it's own unique melody. Basically the chords determine the scale and the scale detirmines the chords. If I haven't said it enough I'll say it one more time: it's all about the chord-scale relationship!

OK, so now that i'm in the bay, you wanna make some extra money and teach me some of this shit?

[gumbomadness]

i know my major and pentatonic scales very well. i'm trying to expand, but like mwr said, nothing i've read has made sense really as far as modes go. ok, actually, you guys did very well and i really do understand what they are. i'll have to memorize them in order and stuff so i can know that the e phrygian is the c scale starting w/ the e note, but i get it.

now my question is, and mwr started to talk about it, is how do you know when you can use the mode. if you can't use d dorian in a c-g-am-f so what can you use it in. and what exactly does a dorian sound sound like anyway. are their any particular songs you guys can think of that have a dorian, phygian, or etc sound?

thanks for the help though, between the four of you i understand the concept.

a good song.. for dorian. John Coltrane- Impressions.. half of it is in D DORIAN then it all shifts one fret up...to become... Eb Dorian?
Anyway, thats a good one to improvise over with dorian. Oh.. and you know that it IS in that scale because of the chords used. i will type in detail tonight.. if MWR doesnt beat me to it. which he will. which is ok.

[myxomatosis]

I downloaded something from a hub in DC++ that just has like 200 different files (programs, pdfs, txt, gfx) to help you learn guitar stuff. Here's one of the lessons on modes. I don't know modes myself, and I've not even read this lesson, but it may be helpful. The spacing got messed up a little.

Another thing it came with is a program where you can pick a key and a mode, and it will show you every postition on the guitar with the correct notes. If you want me to send it to you I can, it's only about 32kb.

Code: Select all

Lesson: 11
Title:     Modes


Level: Intermediate
Style: Theory
Instructor: Dave Good

	In this lesson, I want to discuss and hopefully try to clarify
the confusion surrounding the modes.  The ability to understand and utilize the
modes is one of the most important abilities for a modern guitarist to have.  I
have my own way of explaining the modes, which I feel makes more sense than the
way most other teachers and textbooks explain them, so even if you have tried 
to learn the modes before and gotten confused, stick with this lesson and you 
should have a good idea of what they are and how to use them.
	Before we begin, you need to know all the key signatures. If you don't,
you can still probably understand this lesson, but I would suggest going back 
and applying this information in all the keys (as usual).  All the examples 
will relate back to the key of C, as this is the clearest way to descibe these
ideas.
	
And now for the lesson
----------------------

     The Modes are, simply put, scales that are derived from the major scale.
For example, most of you (I would hope!) are familiar with the minor scale and 
understand that it is built from the 6th degree of the relative major scale. 
Correct?  Of course.  Now, what you need to realize is that the minor scale is 
technically a mode, but is not usually referred to as such for various reasons
(these reasons go back hundreds of years, but do not bear repeating here).
So far, we can make a chart that looks like this:
  Key of C

Scale Degree         Note
1                     C
2		      D
3                     E
4		      F
5		      G
6		      A
7		      B
8 (octave)	      C

 Examining this, we notice that the key is C Major, and the relative minor key 
to C Major is A Minor which is the 6th degree of the scale.  There is a concept
at work here, in that you may build a scale starting on ANY degree of the major
scale-in fact, this is where the modes are found.
	If you were in the key of C, and decided to start on D instead of C,
and continue through the key of C, you would have a scale that looks like this:

   D E F G A B C D
	Notice it has the same notes as the key of C Major, but begins on the 
2nd degree of the C Major scale.  This is what is called the Dorian mode.  
If you were to get a friend, and have him play a C Major chord while you played
these notes, it would sound just like C Major.  But, if you had him play a D 
Minor chord, and you played these notes, then you would hear a difference in 
the sound of the scale (to see why I said D Minor instead of Major, see my 
earlier lesson on chord construction).  
	Similarly, you can do this with the 3rd degree of the C Major scale,
obtaining E F G A B C D E for your next scale.  This is called the Phrygian 
mode, and sounds darker and more mysterious than the Dorian mode.  Again, play
this over an E Minor chord to hear the distinctive sound of this mode.
	Like I said earlier, you can do this for each scale degree,
obtaining a different mode on each degree.  The following chart
presents a summary of the modes that are obtained on each degree, and
the characteristics of each mode:

Key of C Major
Scale Degree     Mode Name        Characteristic Sound
------------------------------------------------------
1		Ionian (Major)    Major  (Majestic sounding)
2		Dorain            Minor  (Weepy. Used a lot in Country music)
3		Phrygian          Minor  (Dark, used a lot in Heavy metal)
4		Lydian  	  Major  (Sweet, used all over)
5		Mixolydian  	  Major  (The basis of rock and blues.)
6		Aeolian (Minor)   Minor  (The Natural Minor scale)
7		Locrian		  Minor  (Vaugely oriental sounding)

	Whether a mode is major or minor depends on the triad that is built
on the root.  For example, the Mixolydian mode is major because its' root triad
is major.  G Mixolydian is a major mode because in the Key of C, the chord
built on G is a major chord.  This list of modes will hold true for any key.
	
	Before I give the next lesson, I want you to go through and write out
all the modes in all the key signatures, so that you begin to know and get 
familiar with what mode is associated with what scale degree.  In the next 
lesson I will show a second way of learning the modes, one that can be 
slightly confusing if you have not yet learned which mode is in what key
signature.  The next method will involve retaining the root note of the major
scale, but changing key signatures, thereby changing mode and really showing 
the difference between the modes and the major scale.

[MWR]

now my question is, and mwr started to talk about it, is how do you know when you can use the mode. if you can't use d dorian in a c-g-am-f so what can you use it in. and what exactly does a dorian sound sound like anyway. are their any particular songs you guys can think of that have a dorian, phygian, or etc sound?

thanks for the help though, between the four of you i understand the concept.

To understand this you have to go back to the very basics:

WWHWWWH

That's the formula of whole and half steps with a major scale right? Ok so if a mode starts on a different degree of the major scale, take dorian for example, which starts on the second degree, you get:

WHWWWHW

These scales are simliar because they contain the same amount of whole and half steps but they are in different places or displaced if you will. Simple enough right?
So lets superimpose the notes of D dorian over this:

WHWWWHW=D E F G A B C

Go ahead and count whole and half steps to see that it works. Also remember that there is a half step between E and F and B and C. If you didn't know this than it's gonna get confusing really quick.

Ok so now we're going to build diatonic harmony by stacking thirds which is a fancy way of saying were going to build basic chords using only the notes of the scale. Simple three note chords with the root, third, and fifth.
(If you're still not understanding it's not gonna get any easier so go read up on building chords. )
So this stacking thirds thing sounds really hard huh? You're gonna have to count half steps and whole steps and it becomes a mess really quickly. Actully I'm messing with you. All you have to do is start on the first degree of the scale and take every other note for three notes and do the same for each degree of the scale. Stay with me it's simple:

So starting with the first degree D you would take
D E F G A B C = DFA

Starting on the second degree of E:
D E F G A B C = EGB

simple enough right? So here are the rest:
FAC
GBD
ACE
BDF
CEG

So we have the diatonic harmony of a D Dorian scale- chords built using only the notes of the scale.
Next we're going to name these chords. The easiest way is to take each chord and compare it to a major chord using the same root. So starting with the first chord with root D:

D F A vs. D F# A (D major chord)

You know that F is the third of the chord and the third detirmines if the chord is major or minor right? You'll notice that the third is flatted compared to the major chord. Hmmm...a flat third or minor third, sounds like a minor chord to me and I know the fifth, A, isn't sharp or flat in D minor so boom! First chord is is a D minor which also means the Dorian scale is a minor tonaility mode.
I'm going to go through and name the rest of the chords. Once again if you can't follow along as I name simple triads than this topic is beyond you. It might help if you follow along here. Just go to where it says "chords" and plug in the root and quality (either major, minor, diminished) double check the notes and take a look at the intervals too.
DFA = Dm
EGB = Em
FAC = F
GBD = G
ACE = Am
BDF = Bdim
CEG = C

So now we finally have our diatonic harmony all named and ready to go:

Dm-Em-F-G-Am-Bdim-C

Now lets compare that to a harmonized natural minor scale. I know we've been comparing everything to the major scale up to this point but because Dorian is minor in tonality(contains a minor or flat 3rd) it makes more sense to compare it with the natural minor scale which is considered the only "true" minor tonality scale. Every other minor scale is a departure natural minor just as every other major tonality scale is a departure from the Major(Ionian) scale.
So I recommend harmonizing the natural minor scale on your own like we did with Dorian above. Use D natural minor because we want to see the direct differences between these two modes:

Dm-Edim-F-Gm-Am-Bb-C

Now lets compare the basic tonality of these harmonized scales and not worry about specific keys:

Dorian: Iminor-IIminor-IIImajor-IVmajor-Vminor-VIdiminished-VIImajor
N.Minor:Iminor-IIdiminished-IIImajor-IVminor-Vminor-VImajor-VIImajor

So how does Dorian differ from Aeolian(natural minor)? Well first off that second chord becomes a straight minor chord instead of diminished, they both have a flat 3rd though and the 5th can be left out so it's not too big a deal. The III is major for both, nothing there. Woah Nelly! What do we have here with this IV chord? It seems to be major instead of minor, that's a pretty important alteration. V chord is the same. There's another diminshed situation with that VI chord, nothing to make note of. And finally the VII which is major for both.
So it's pretty obvious that the IV chord is where the charicteristic flavor of Dorian comes out. The basic diatonic harmony of each scale is the same except for the placement of the diminished chords and that IV chord. Now you're probably wondering about harmony that isn't basic like sevenths, ninths, etc. I didn't want to go there because it only confuses the situation. Adding sevenths can certainly instensify the sound but it doesn't change the basic tonailty of major, minor, or diminished. A dominant seventh is major for those of you who didn't know.
Anyway that major IV chord in Dorian is our focus. The effect of having that chord major is to get a slightly brighter sound than natural minor. It's not as intense and dark.

Finally an example, the chorus to So Damn Lucky:
Bm A G D/F# Em Em D C A
This is where you're familiarity with keys and key signature will make or break you. You wan't to either hear the tonality, what chord feels like home or find the key that all these chords fit into. Well it's not in D because that C would be C#. It's not A becuase that G would be sharp and the E would be major instead of minor. It's not in C because of that F# and the Em would major. I think it's Em because I can hear it but lets check it with the diatonic harmony from the natural minor scale. If we think it's a minor key than we start by comparing it to the natural minor:

E Natural Minor:Eminor-F#diminished-Gmajor-Aminor-Bminor-Cmajor-Dmajor

Looks like everything fits except, you guessed it, the IV chord. It's major instead of minor which means this is an E Dorian progression.
Remember though that the Dorian sound is only contained in that A major chord. Everything else is the same as it would be in natural minor. Which means you have to be on top of the chord changes. You have to be aware when that IV chord is coming. If you don't play a C# over the IV chord than you're not implying Dorian. This is where it get's tricky with the actual application. You can't jam away using E dorian and expect it to sound good. That C# won't work over C major but it could give a major7th sound to the D chord. It will sound dissonant over G major. Being the major third of our IV chord, A,it will sound most "at home" played over that chord. Which brings us to the next important point: chord progressions ebb and flow in regards to key. In simple terms this means you would use the Dorian mode over A for the SDL chorus but all the other chords are diatonic to E natural minor thus you would switch back after the IV has passed.
I'm probably getting over peoples heads by this point but this is where the real bread and butter of modes comes in and I want to make sure everyones on the same page.

If you haven't noticed by now modes are not just an improvisational device. They're closely knit to a huge vocabulary of chord progressions which means they're every bit as important when it comes to composition.

Holy crap I'm not spell checking that.

[Brock]

*presses sticky button*

[MWR]

OK, so now that i'm in the bay, you wanna make some extra money and teach me some of this shit?

I'm up near Sac, which I don't like to admit, and without a car so it wouldn't be possible. I would jump at the chance if I was still down in Marin though. I've been contemplating giving lessons for a while and that would be a good way to start out.

[dmbguitar718]

OK, so now that i'm in the bay, you wanna make some extra money and teach me some of this shit?

I'm up near Sac, which I don't like to admit, and without a car so it wouldn't be possible. I would jump at the chance if I was still down in Marin though. I've been contemplating giving lessons for a while and that would be a good way to start out.

You give me e-boners, Mike.

[MWR]

Haha!

I'm hella internet sexy.

[czech]

OK, so now that i'm in the bay, you wanna make some extra money and teach me some of this shit?

I'm up near Sac, which I don't like to admit, and without a car so it wouldn't be possible. I would jump at the chance if I was still down in Marin though. I've been contemplating giving lessons for a while and that would be a good way to start out.

well, if you make it back out here drop me a line

[littlefriend]

Best. Post. Ever.

[MWR]

I have more to add for those that are up for it.



And I'll definately drop a line if I'm in the bay Check.

[myxomatosis]

I have more to add for those that are up for it.

carry on

[dmbguitar718]

Btw Mike - My lessons start tomorrow.