12-string question.

grock · Unread post by **grock** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 3:33 pm

just for quick clarification on terminology...

A440 is notation for concert pitch. it means that a note "A" is has a frequency of 440 Hz. tuning down a half step does not change this. i think what you guys are talking about is standard tuning versus drop tuning.

some tuners can adjust and tune to A435 and other variants. so in this case all the notes would be just slightly flat. and no amount of capoing would put you in tune with other guitars. paul simon often tunes about 50 cents or a quarter step under concert pitch. of course his band follows suit.

Roastbeef · Unread post by **Roastbeef** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 4:01 pm

grock wrote:A440 is notation for concert pitch. it means that a note "A" is has a frequency of 440 Hz. tuning down a half step does not change this. i think what you guys are talking about is standard tuning versus drop tuning.

Tuning down does actually change it. I'm not sure what the exact frequency would be (430 Hz?), but obviously it isn't 440 Hz anymore. I believe grock means that you would still tune to 440 on the tuner, but while fretting the first fret. There are tuners that can tune down a half step as well. Here's one:

http://www.bigrockeng.com/apgt.html

Appfro · Unread post by **Appfro** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 4:42 pm

so roast, i checked out your 12 string. pretty nice. and you keep it in standard?
I know what 440 is, that one guys said he doesn't keep it in 440, that was my question. but even being tuned down 1/2 a step and having to capo at 1 to play in standard is still something that i don't want to have to do. but i looked at yours and it looks great. i may have to look into it.

grock · Unread post by **grock** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 4:49 pm

no what i mean is that when you play an A note, it is vibrating at a frequency of 440 Hz. or 220 or 110 if you are playing lower octaves. it is an arbitrary standard. A440 is a definition. it's like saying that north is to the top of the map and south is down, when it easily could have been the other way. so A438 could be used but it would be flat compared to everything else. if you tuned down in A438 it would still be A438.

see, i am not talking about the fret position. i mean the actual note of A.

if your guitar is tuned down a half step, the A fret position isn't really A. it is Ab. But the tone of A stays the same. if you fret one fret higher than where you normally find an A it will be at 440 Hz. if you place a capo on there, you could play along with anyone else. A440 is a tuning standard that is rarely deviated from nowadays. tuning to alternate tunings are still A440. Standard, Dropped D, DADGAD, Oped G, are all A440.

it is only when you tune to quarter tones or you tune every string sharp by 10 cents or whatever. that wouldn't be A440.

if you go to the bottom of this page it has a listing of the frequencies for A440 tuning system. http://www.uk-piano.org/history/pitch.html

grock · Unread post by **grock** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 4:52 pm

back to the question at hand. you shouldn't have to tune down a modern twelve string. but you should use lights or extra lights to keep the tension down. i have a fender 12 string with lights on it and it will accept tuning up to open E. it only cost about 230-250 i think.

Roastbeef · Unread post by **Roastbeef** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:07 pm

Yeah Apps. THIS is it. Plays fine in standard. The Seagull is a great guitar for the money. Some people, for whatever reason, struggle with the look of the headstock, but there is a reason for it:

http://www.seagullguitars.com/seagullstory.htm wrote:The Tapered Headstock - Tuning Made Easy
Tuning can be a pain-in-the-neck (sorry). You may have wondered why it is that even after you have carefully tuned each string, it is often necessary to go back and make further adjustments on a few of the strings. This is because the neck moves slightly as you change the tension of the strings. Therefore you don't just tune the strings, you 'balance' the neck at the same time. The tapered headstock on Seagull guitars provides straight string pull, which minimizes the neck twisting effect. This insures that it will be easier to get your guitar in tune and keep it that way. This is particularly advantageous for the growing ranks of players who use open tunings.

My bigger problem with them is the slightly wider necks. That's why I went with my Martin over the S6. However, the slightly wider neck makes more sense on the 12 string.

I got mine on eBay (risky, I know) for $240 (that includes shipping). HERE are some completed auctions for one so you know what they normally go for. you should be able to snag one for ~$200. HERE's one to watch. I'll post a better recording of mine in the Recording forum. #41 sounds sweet on a 12er!

I see what you're saying Grock. But if I play something tuned down (rarely do I) I don't refer to an A chord as an AbMaj. It's simply an A chord cuz it's in that position. And if you want to tune down a half step without fretting the first fret, you need to tune the A string to a frequency lower than 440 Hz.

grock · Unread post by **grock** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:20 pm

ok well if you want to think of it like that it is fine. but you really should know that the tuning is still based on A440. Ab is 415.3. but noone is ever gonna tell you to tune to A415.3. that just don't make sense. you may see A438 or just slightly different from 440.

i do think of an E chord shape on a guitar tuned down a full step as a D. if you capo 2 and play a G shap that is really an A and i think of it that way. and i would advise others to actually think in the actual chord that is being played cuz it helps tremendously when accompanying someone or telling someone the chords so they can accompany you. i have confused too many bassists not to have learned this lesson. i often capo or drop/open tune for my band and talking about the actual real chord, not the shape, makes life easy for all of us.

on to the real question. i say go for the seagull. i have played them and they are very responsive and full. of course it's a twelve. so who wasn't expecting full. i bought my fender from a friend and it really wasn't worth as much as far as tone as the seagull.

Roastbeef · Unread post by **Roastbeef** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:23 pm

grock wrote:i do think of an E chord shape on a guitar tuned down a full step as a D. if you capo 2 and play a G shap that is really an A and i think of it that way. and i would advise others to actually think in the actual chord that is being played cuz it helps tremendously when accompanying someone or telling someone the chords so they can accompany you. i have confused too many bassists not to have learned this lesson. i often capo or drop/open tune for my band and talking about the actual real chord, not the shape, makes life easy for all of us.

Wow. Really? This would make my head spin!

grock · Unread post by **grock** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:31 pm

Roastbeef wrote:
grock wrote:i do think of an E chord shape on a guitar tuned down a full step as a D. if you capo 2 and play a G shap that is really an A and i think of it that way. and i would advise others to actually think in the actual chord that is being played cuz it helps tremendously when accompanying someone or telling someone the chords so they can accompany you. i have confused too many bassists not to have learned this lesson. i often capo or drop/open tune for my band and talking about the actual real chord, not the shape, makes life easy for all of us.
Wow. Really? This would make my head spin!

it was hard at first but it a lot easier now. and you find a lot of funny chord shapes and can add a lot of depth by playing the chords in different voicings.

Appfro · Unread post by **Appfro** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:26 pm

i was saying that i understood the concept of A440.

but i was going to a different subject...keeping it in standard or a half step down

fatjack · Unread post by **fatjack** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:02 pm

grock wrote:
Roastbeef wrote:
grock wrote:i do think of an E chord shape on a guitar tuned down a full step as a D. if you capo 2 and play a G shap that is really an A and i think of it that way. and i would advise others to actually think in the actual chord that is being played cuz it helps tremendously when accompanying someone or telling someone the chords so they can accompany you. i have confused too many bassists not to have learned this lesson. i often capo or drop/open tune for my band and talking about the actual real chord, not the shape, makes life easy for all of us.
Wow. Really? This would make my head spin!
it was hard at first but it a lot easier now. and you find a lot of funny chord shapes and can add a lot of depth by playing the chords in different voicings.

i deal with this all the time with my church music, but usually i ignore what shape it tells me to use with a capo and just play the actual chord (as if i didn't know how the play an Eb without one :roll:

)

DT · Unread post by DT » Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:50 pm

oh gimme a break with the 440 lecture, we all know that a half step down is Ab.... it was just easier to write "440" than "in standard tuning" while i'm speed reading in a lab, waiting for Ansys to load so i can do some work

DMBTabs.com

12-string question.

Who is online