is DMB white music?

[KevinGTArch]

Ticohands - nice post! Let me dig into it with you a little bit.

Of course I'll agree with you that differences exist and that this CAN be a good thing. But I disagree (and maybe I'm not interpreting you correctly)
that because stereotypes do exist we should continue to buy into them and "slap" labels on things.

Here's a definition of stereotype according to Mariam-Webster:

"something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment"

Stereotypes, though they do exist, are a negative thing. By the above definition alone, stereotypes do two things. First, in our arguement, they label a group of people based on their DIFFERENCES from another group and, second, it disregards any differences that may exist within the context of that label.

For example, if you label music as "Black" in reference to the color of the race that predominantly produces or listens to it, you have created a stereotype. Let's say you label Hip Hop, Rap, and R&B as "Black" music as many people commonly do. Here's the fallacy. What about people of other ethnicities such as Eminem who have broken into that GENRE of music? What about GENRES of music that have members of other ethnicities such as the Allman Brothers, Lenny Kravitz, Jimi Hendrix, AND the Dave Matthews Band?

My point being is by classifying music according to the ethnicity that is most associated with it, stereotypes, demonstrating a high level of ignorance, are created. There is a difference between traditional African or African-American music and calling music "Black". Why not simply use the genre or REAL category of the music if you want to label it? It's certainly more accurate, educated, AND respectful.

I know I wouldn't want to have been remembered simply as someone who recorded "White" music. Again, I'll re-state that it's the POWER of music to breakdown and transcend the barriers created by stereotypes. I couldn't agree more about learning and appreciating music of other cultures. If you learn or appreciate enough - you don't NEED a stereotype.

And there's MY rant for today.

[Speenis]

Another thing, and not to be racist in any way, but most people tend to listen to people of the same race based on their voice. Black people tend to have a different voice than white people. For example, back in the day when Elvis was real popular, most black people liked him because he sounded like he was black. Also, most black people could not afford TVs back then, so they didn't know he wasnt black for awhile. It's the same way with the lead singer from Sublime. Mostly since Sublime is a reggae rock band and reggae was born in Jamaica(i think). So you can't necessarily say that society puts a color on music. This post wasn't made to piss anyone off, I just remember learning about the 50's and how black people like Elvis. Thats pretty much all I was goin with here.

[ticohans]

I guess that when I say stereotype, I mean something different. For me personally, the word doesn't carry all the negative baggage that it does for some people. I think it's fine to speak in stereotypes and generalizations as long as one does so with the solid understanding that stereotypes are always oversimplifications and that there are always MANY people who do not fit them completely. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that there is not a single person who fits a single stereotype perfectly. But the labels do allow one to speak about a great number of people and societies with ease.

I agree COMPLETELY with the idea that one needs to use the MOST ACCURATE labels possible, and if this discussion had not turned towards trying to disassociate music from the listeners, I can assure you that I would have launched into some sort of diatribe disputing the fact that DMB is white music. Because it is NOT white music, at least not exclusively by any means. So yes, let's please use the most accurate labels possible.

I guess part of my original post was a response to the rather frustrating postmodern tendency to try and throw out all labels because they all are inadequate in describing whatever it is said label is applied to. The truth is that we can talk about little, if anything, with complete accuracy because words do a poor job of expressing all that we feel and think. Carried to a logical conclusion, this idea of throwing all labels out the window would lead to a total cessation of dialogue, which is just retarded. When I say something is American music or Hindi music or Latin music, I do so with the understanding that such labels are very incomplete and are in no way completely accurate. But I do as well as I can.

Also, I am frustrated by people who really want to ignore differences. Some people's skin are a different color than mine. Some people talk differently. Some people have different facial structures. Some people have different opinions and ideas. A great many people in today's PC society think that for some reason if we ignore said differences that there will be no conflict. It's the sweep everything under the rug mentality. I for one, am NOT uncomfortable around people that are different, and see no reason for ignoring the differences that exist. In fact, I think this desire to pretend that we're all the same deep down inside somewhere is what leads to so much conflict, because of course we're not. Better to learn about those differences than to hide them.

Finally returning to labels, of course they don't all work. You will always have white guys like Eminem rapping, and that's wonderful. When you speak in generalizations, I would hope that all do so with the understanding that they are just that: GENERALIZATIONS. Labels and the like should not and DO NOT limit people groups, cultures, or music styles, and I have no problem with my white homies who rock out with the bling bling thugs. Labels do not define, but make it easier to talk about broad ideas or people groups.

[spencey]

Honestly... that was DAMN good!!!!!

[KevinGTArch]

I think I'm on the page with you now. Stereotype to you may not carry the baggage but in defintion and to the general populus it carries a negative connotation. Using the word "generalization" clarifies your arguement and makes all the world of difference to me.

Stereotype: Black people listen to Black music.

Generalization: The majority of listeners of Hip-Hop is Black.

Does that make sense? Not only is one more accurate but it shows a higher level of respect and understanding.

Using a label such as Black, I will concede, to describe a person is almost unavoidable. Whether our culture has gotten used to it or the fact that it is human nature to describe something by the most obvious physical appearance. I find it difficult to explain why, in some situations, you would refer to "that Black lady" but not "that White man". Perhaps it just depends on the majority/minority roles in the situations - its just a strange phenomenon. I don't think it's racist by any means if used in the right context.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not THAT caught up in political correctness as to say aside with all differences. The world is full of them and it makes this such a great place. It's by differences alone that we can thank for all the wonderful varities in music and other art.

Yeah, that about does it for me...

Kevin

[two steps too many]

I like that tribe in africa that talks only with clicks, crazy shiz

[ticohans]

If I wanted to point out a white guy in a crowd of black people, I'd say "that white guy." Otherwise I think we're pretty much in agreement. Semantics is such a silly but difficult thing.

[ryopan]

phew. im supposed to do some homework but i read this and had to REALLY think. my brain is too fried for school work now.

[sable]

i want to agree with whoever said there was such a thing as white/black music. when the music is halfway meaningful, it becomes very specific to certain feelings and experiences etc. i'm black & i'm from Africa. i like DMB music and John Mayer, Alana Davis, Coldplay etc. not because their lyrics resonate with any experiences i've had because they don't, but because - like ticohans said, the melodys and rythms are some of my favorite of all genres of music i listen to. probably most importantly, i like this kind of music 'cos acoustic guitar is my instrument of choice. also, there's the whole college thing.

i'd also like to disagree with the guy who characterised black music as rap music that debases women etc. while pop culture tells us that this is the majority of 'black music' (i use 'black music' here to refer to the music that most black people listen to), i'd beg to disagree. yeah, a lot of black people who are lazy to find good music listen to rap - and by that i mean the kind that shows up on MTV & BET and in the clubs etc. (there is a lot more to rap than what the general public is exposed to - to characterise rap as that crap you here on radio is to characterise rock as justin timberlake and britney spears) Jazz and all it's sub-genres could be concidered 'black music' and there are many more examples. when i want to listen to music that strikes a chord with my culture, lifestyle etc. i don't listen to 'white music' but rather i listen to South African jazz, South African pop, American soul etc.

that said, i still get a lot of crap from friends and family 'cos i play 'white music' on my geetar and 'cos 'white music' composes the majority of my collection.

[sable]

Also, I am frustrated by people who really want to ignore differences. Some people's skin are a different color than mine. Some people talk differently. Some people have different facial structures. Some people have different opinions and ideas. A great many people in today's PC society think that for some reason if we ignore said differences that there will be no conflict. It's the sweep everything under the rug mentality. I for one, am NOT uncomfortable around people that are different, and see no reason for ignoring the differences that exist. In fact, I think this desire to pretend that we're all the same deep down inside somewhere is what leads to so much conflict, because of course we're not. Better to learn about those differences than to hide them.

i agree with you on not ignoring differences. being in a world full of different people means there is a lot people can learn from each other. everyone has different experiences and therefore different solutions to problems and a very different world view.
the problem that arises however is that human nature invariably leads us to rank individual/group/culture/nation/etc. one above the other. ignoring differences is a bid to avoid the the above tendancy which has led to (for an extreme example) racism.